57 replies to this topic

[alan two]

Hi Everyone

I have come across the following entry in the CRA 11th Division War Diary for 12th August 1915

'....At 1200 the FOO reported enemy digging trenches NE of hill 70.  He also reported that there was a machine of some sort worked by steam. A (?) artillery fire was brought to bear on the spot and apparently the steam machine was damaged, as a horse was hooked into it and it was dragged away into the scrub.'

I've not heard of this before, does anyone know what the 'steam machine' might have been?

Thanks

Alan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

alan two, on 04 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hi Everyone

I have come across the following entry in the CRA 11th Division War Diary for 12th August 1915

'....At 1200 the FOO reported enemy digging trenches NE of hill 70.  He also reported that there was a machine of some sort worked by steam. A (?) artillery fire was brought to bear on the spot and apparently the steam machine was damaged, as a horse was hooked into it and it was dragged away into the scrub.'

I've not heard of this before, does anyone know what the 'steam machine' might have been?

Thanks

Alan

Alan,
I have seen various references to a German A7V Schutzengrabenbagger - ( Trench Digging Machine ).
LF

[alan two]

Thanks LF

I'll have to look it up.

I've just read the entry for 14th August, same War Diary,

'58th Bds on North of SUVLA BAY reported seeing an armoured car which can apparently run on rails at the same point as the steam machine was fired at by 59th Brigade on the 12th.'

Alan

[centurion]

[
Alan,
I have seen various references to a German A7V Schutzengrabenbagger - ( Trench Digging Machine ).
LF
[/quote]

Amazing what some people will believe - two German A7V Schutzengrabenbagger were built and used on the Western front in 1918. Didn't exist in 1915 and certainly not at Gallipoli. It would take a mighty big horse to pull one away!

 A7Vtrenchdigger.jpg   20.87K   0 downloads

 zanjadora.jpg   32.65K   0 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Centurion,
You are right! clearly that was not the machine in question, anyway thanks for the photographs for future reference.
LF

[alan two]

Thanks Centurion

That is some machine, I've not seen that before.  I'm not sure how they would have got it up Kiretch Tepe Sirt.  

Any thoughts on what the 'steam machine' could have been and the reference to 'rails'?   A simple misunderstanding?  I've not read anything so far that indicates the use of rails other than those laid at Kanagroo Beach.

Regards
Alan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is another machine, the caption reads " WW1 Austro-Hungarian Trench Digging Machine ".
If correct, this machine runs on rails, is much smaller, could be pulled by horses, and could be steam driven.
The photograph looks authentic ?
Any ideas ?
LF

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•  ww1 trench digger new pic.jpg   90.12K   0 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 04 February 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Here is another machine, the caption reads " WW1 Austro-Hungarian Trench Digging Machine ".
If correct, this machine runs on rails, is much smaller, could be pulled by horses, and could be steam driven.
The photograph looks authentic ?
Any ideas ?
LF

It certainly existed but the caption is incorrect - it was a tunnelling machine for mines not trenches and again later than 1915 (and not steam driven but diesel). I think there was only one steam driven trenching machine in WW1 and although the US Engineers did use it  at homethis was not used outside mainland USA


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[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Looks more like a tunneling machine to me. Although I have not seen photos, the above machine fits the description of a boring tool used under Messine ridge, which is still there to this day due to the continual problems they had with it, either breaking down, getting clogged up or by its ability to keep 'diving' deeper into the soil/clay than they wanted. regards Sean  Edit: got there before me centurion, although from memory I thought it was driven pneumatically from pumps above ground?Also it was british, not German.

[centurion]

spconnolly007, on 04 February 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Looks more like a tunneling machine to me. Although I have not seen photos, the above machine fits the description of a boring tool used under Messine ridge, which is still there to this day due to the continual problems they had with it, either breaking down, getting clogged up or by its ability to 'dive' deeper into the soil/clay than they wanted. regards Sean

Our posts Have crossed - see above


Yes a tunnelling machine - no not the British one. There was a German scheme in the mid 1930s to further develop the machine shown to mine the Maginot Line (but they decided it would be easier to let the tanks go round its flank). The problem with the British machines (there was more than one) is that they were designed for coal mines and couldn't manage softer clay.

The French experimented with trench digging machines and the British inspected these but concluded that they would be impossible to conceal if used near the front and would invite concentrated artillery fire. I think one may have been used to dig emergency anti tank ditches in 1918 (when the Allies still expected mass German tank attacks).

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The Americans did use small trench diggers for laying communications cables

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

I did read that 2/3 were ordered to be used on the ridge, but only 1 was tested before  giving up on it. Again, from memory, I thought they were machines that had been used to tunnel the London underground and the sewer system in manchester? Sean

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

It is German after all, according to Barton's 'Beneath Flanders Fields' it is described as a successful looking machine driving headings for dugout's, and here it is in action. Regards Sean

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[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sean,
Great photograph, it would appear to be the same machine as that in my previous post, which seems to confirm its existance and use in WW1.
Regards,
Leo

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Leo, without doubt the same machine, just a shame they dont expand on details in my tunneling book. Regards Sean

[Tom W.]

alan two, on 04 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hi Everyone

I have come across the following entry in the CRA 11th Division War Diary for 12th August 1915

'....At 1200 the FOO reported enemy digging trenches NE of hill 70.  He also reported that there was a machine of some sort worked by steam. A (?) artillery fire was brought to bear on the spot and apparently the steam machine was damaged, as a horse was hooked into it and it was dragged away into the scrub.'

I've not heard of this before, does anyone know what the 'steam machine' might have been?

There were plenty of steam-powered commercial trench-digging machines available before the war. They were used to dig trenches for sewer pipes, water mains, gas lines, canals, etc. They were also called mechanical plows (or ploughs), traction machines, and power back fillers.

Here's one from 1906:

http://books.google....achine"&f=false

Here's one from 1915:

http://books.google....achine"&f=false

Most followed the same basic design, although this one is powered by gasoline. You can see how a horse could pull it away if major parts of it--such as the bucketed wheel--were blown off by artillery:

http://books.google....achine"&f=false

Needless to say, there wasn't "only one steam driven trenching machine in WW1." There may have been dozens of commercial models used by the various combatants.

[centurion]

Tom W., on 04 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

There were plenty of steam-powered commercial trench-digging machines available before the war. They were used to dig trenches for sewer pipes, water mains, gas lines, canals, etc. They were also called mechanical plows (or ploughs), traction machines, and power back fillers.

Here's one from 1906:

http://books.google......hine"&f=false

Here's one from 1915:

http://books.google......hine"&f=false

Most followed the same basic design, although this one is powered by gasoline. You can see how a horse could pull it away if major parts of it--such as the bucketed wheel--were blown off by artillery:

http://books.google......hine"&f=false

Needless to say, there wasn't "only one steam driven trenching machine in WW1." There may have been dozens of commercial models used by the various combatants.

No there were numerous machines available that could dig a ditch or cable trench (and virtually none were steam powered by 1915). There was only one steam powered machine that could dig a man sized trench. Anything big and powerful enough to dig a man sized trench was far too big to tow away by a horse. Traction engines, back fillers and mechanical ploughs are entirely different things

[Tom W.]

centurion, on 04 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

No there were numerous machines available that could dig a ditch or cable trench (and virtually none were steam powered by 1915). There was only one steam powered machine that could dig a man sized trench. Anything big and powerful enough to dig a man sized trench was far too big to tow away by a horse.

You're just factually incorrect.

[centurion]

Tom W., on 05 February 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

You're just factually incorrect.

Show us the evidence then

[centurion]

US forces used a number of digging and excavation machines . For example The Back Filler - a sort of miniature drag line

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The Austin Trench digger (for laying cables and pipes)

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The French, as I've said, also experimented, this digger was used to dig cable trenches (that isn't a tree behind it but the soil being thrown up)

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The problem with trench diggers (as opposed to steam shovels and the like) is that they work in long straight lines (which is why they tended to be found on farms in US Mid Western states) and WW1 trenches (apart from pipe and cable ones as well as anti tank ditches) were not dug in long straight lines.

[centurion]

alan two, on 04 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Thanks LF

I'll have to look it up.

I've just read the entry for 14th August, same War Diary,

'58th Bds on North of SUVLA BAY reported seeing an armoured car which can apparently run on rails at the same point as the steam machine was fired at by 59th Brigade on the 12th.'

Alan

The Turks did have armoured railcars that could be used on narrow gauge lines - this one was captured near Damascus


 turkish.jpeg   16.87K   1 downloads

[Martin G]

Are we certain that the steam contraption was being used in digging trenches? The original post could be read differently i.e there was trench digging and there was a steam engine in the same location. I assume it was signalled by the signature steam. Just a thought. The photos are fascinating by the way. I recall many years ago on my RE Young Officer' course seeing a trench digging machine which was notoriously unreliable and the instructors explaining how difficult it was to design a reliable machine that could work in all terrain and types of ground. MG

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Another machine, this one the Whitaker Tunneling machine, was used beneath the trenches of the western front(Beneath Flanders Fields) Sean

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[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

And another from the same source, a Clay Cutting Machine, capable of dealing with Flanders clay, although this design was never used in action. Sean

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•  img227 (280x185).jpg   48.04K   0 downloads

[khaki]

We may be leading 'ourselves' up the garden path/trench on this one, the clues are in the wording that a horse was hooked to it to drag it away suggests that it was light within the capabilities of a horse and I don't think that a trench digging machine fit's the picture. I wouldn't be surprised that the machine complete with steam was nothing more than a field kitchen. It wouldn't be the first time that a FOO had made the same mistake.
khaki

[centurion]

khaki, on 05 February 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

We may be leading 'ourselves' up the garden path/trench on this one, the clues are in the wording that a horse was hooked to it to drag it away suggests that it was light within the capabilities of a horse and I don't think that a trench digging machine fit's the picture.

A point I was trying to make earlier. However unless it was producing prodigious amounts of cooked rice I can't see a field kitchen producing enough steam to be spotted.