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Need help getting information about my Grandfathet


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#1 Kim_Darke

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 08:43 PM

Hello,

I am trying to find more information about my Grandfather. My mother told me that her Father was an officer in the Horse Artillery during the Great War. Later, I was told, he served in Ireland as a Black and Tan. After reading posts on the subject matter on this forum he would have been an "Auxie". My mother also stated that my Grandfather was assassinated by the IRA in Dublin in 1921. Again reading the posts about those that died on active duty in Ireland, my Grandfather's name is not among those listed. I have two old photos: one of a young man in a ceremonial uniform (non khaki) with buttons and horizontal "straps" the uniform is dark possibly blue, black or green.

I have another picture of my grandfather's coffin on a gun carriage with soldiers in khaki uniforms with peaked caps with shiny peaks and a light (white) band around them.

My mother was born in 1919 so his funeral would have been after the Grat War ended.

His name was Walter Arthur Cooper.

I would appreciate some pointers to finding out more about my Grandfather.

Thanks in advance.

#2 corisande

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:15 PM

You probably need to add some more information, like his place and date of birth, and his parents

1. There are a lot of "Walter Cooper" in Royal Artillery with MICs (Medal cards) but only one "Walter A Cooper" and no "Walter Arthur Cooper". He could have served as just Walter Cooper

2. There doe not appear to be a record of a commission - well I could not find one. If he was not commissioned then you can be virtually certain that he was not in Auxiliaries. So he would have been a Black and Tan
In addition I have what I think is a full list off all ADRIC who were KIA - click. He is not there which means again that he was probably not ADRIC

3. I do not see an entry for him having joined RIC.

4. I cannot find the record of him being murdered in 1921 in Irish local papers. There is a constable Cooper wounded in Cork. Again all this means is that I cannot find him

5. I cannot see a death entry in Irish GRO over 1919 to 1921 period

So any additional info might help

#3 corisande

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:27 PM

Again does not mean this is him but

11 Mar 1921 Three RIC men are attacked near the corner of Victoria Sq and Church St in Belfast resulting in the death of all three (Constable Walter Cooper, Constable Robert Crooks and Constable John McIntosh). Two civilians are also injured in the attack and one of them, Alexander Allan (a Protestant) died later in hospital. IRA party probably led by Rodger McCorley. Heavy raiding by the military ensued but no reprisal killings.

Another paper carries a fuller report, but gives him as W H Cooper (I would not read too much into that, Irish papers tend to get names wrong). If any readers of the thread have access to Belfast Telegraph, that should have even more
Posted Image

#4 BLee

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:41 PM

There was a Walter Cooper shot dead inBelfast, the information below is from my website. The information came fromthe Irish Times and was verified with the Police Roll of Honour website (whichis now unfortunately defunct) , he was the only Walter Cooper listed on thissite.

On the 11th of March 1921 two policemen were shot dead another mortally wounded and a civilian shot dead in an attackin Victoria Square Belfast. A Military Court of Inquiry in lieu of an Inquest heard from witnesses that the woman was talking to two Constables, they were later joined by a third Constable at about 8.20pm. Six or seven shots were heard and two of the Constables and the woman fell to the ground and the third Constable ran from the scene clutching his head. Two of the Constables and the woman were pronounced dead at the scene the third constable died two days laterin hospital. The dead policemen were:

  • Constable Robert A Crook aged 26.
  • Constable John McIntosh aged 26.
  • Constable Walter Cooper aged 28, died two days later in Hospital.


#5 Pavster1980

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 10:48 PM

Hello all

Constable Cooper is listed on this site also . . . . click


Rich



#6 Kim_Darke

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:37 PM

Thanks to all that responded, I am so grateful.

I had also heard that my grandfather kept a mistress while in Ireland.

Wouldit have been standard practice for those killed in Ireland to repatriated and given a full military funeral?

The only other acurate information I can volunteer is:

My grandfather is buried in Putney Vale Cemetary

His wife's name was Mildred

They lived on Putney Bridge Road (number 88 I think)..

They had two children; Patricia Ann 1919 and Leonard Arthur

I do plan to write to the Cemetary, I would like to get his service records but I live in the US do access to the public records office in Que is not possible.

Again thank you all.

#7 jdoyle

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:19 AM

a couple of family trees on Ancestry have your man as Walter Henry Cooper, 4 have his birth 23rd June 1892 and death as 13th March 1921.

Driver, Royal Horse Artillery no 67944; enlisted 14/11/1911, discharged 30/4/1918. Silver War Badge entry lists discharge a result of sickness rather than wounds.

One has his birth as 1890 and marriage to Mildred Henrietta Harvey; 4 have his marriage to Mildred Agnes Harvey.

One has a note derived from Abbott's book :

"Cooper arrived with two other drivers in Belfast on 10 March 1921 on special duty from Gormanston Camp to take up duty as drivers and bring vehicles back to their depot. At 8.30pm on 11 March 1921 they were walking in Victoria Square, a few paces from Church Lane, when they were attacked by four or five men. Two of the Constables were killed outright, with Constable Cooper dying from his wounds in the Royal Victoria Hospital on 13 March 1921."


The RIC had a Veterans and Drivers unit who were generally not commissioned officers.

http://www.royaliris...om/index12.html

The man on the left of the top left image looks a bit like the photo attached to one of the family trees.

#8 corisande

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:51 AM

Those trees on Ancestry that jdoyle found will save you a lot of time. Have a look at this tree which is well researched - click for Ancestry tree - the tree owner is a grandchild of the son of Walter's marriage to Mildred

I see where part of the problem on his death has come from. The Irish GRO death is for a William Henry Cooper born circa 1889 (vol1. p223. The British authorities tended to be a bit slapdash in registering deaths. This must have been perpetuated in local news reports, as I found the below in a web book about the McMahon murders. Remember that this is not an official report, but someone's writing about it.

Posted Image


But the account would be accurate of the murder.

And again jdoyle's finding of those photos would be useful to you. The comparison he quotes is below

Posted Image


You really want to contact those relations that jdoyle has found for you - there may well be more that they can tell you. The only caveat I have is that the tree owner has put is "Almost certain this is my Grandfather due to name match on Dads Birth Cert". I would agree with that, and think that if you tie together the info from birth, marriage and death certs, plus the 2 children, you should be 100% certain.

#9 Kim_Darke

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:15 PM

Thanks to all. The Cooper in the picture looks similar to my half brother at a similar age.

The grandchild's research is probably related to my Uncle Leonard.

One other thing: my mother mentioned something about a court martial for cowardice - or some sort of punishment. However, she said that it was shell shock.

I know there is more known about what we now know as PTSD. Would shell shock be a reason for a medical discharge in Aprill 1918?

#10 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:40 PM

I am a little confused by his MIC or SWB card, his discharge is given as per A.O 265/17 Para 2 A.1. I thought Para 2 A.1. referred to officers?
Can anyone confirm that?

#11 jdoyle

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:06 AM

the paragraph should relate to officers

http://1914-1918.inv...-1273855752.jpg

but even The Long Trail example shows a Gunner being discharged under Army Order 265/17 Para 2(a) I

http://www.1914-1918...grandad/mic.htm

#12 Kim_Darke

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 10:13 PM

My brother has confirmed that our Mother's mother was Mildred Harvey.

Wow thank you I thought this was mission impossible.

Any suggestions on how to pick up the trail myself.? It seems that those who were kind enough to respond have access to information I did not know existed or did not know how to access

Again than you very much - both my brother I are very grateful.

#13 jdoyle

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:07 AM

the text re the shooting of Constable Cooper comes from the following book

http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/1856353141

Not one I've read.

#14 Kim_Darke

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:51 PM

Those trees on Ancestry that jdoyle found will save you a lot of time. Have a look at this tree which is well researched - click for Ancestry tree - the tree owner is a grandchild of the son of Walter's marriage to Mildred

I see where part of the problem on his death has come from. The Irish GRO death is for a William Henry Cooper born circa 1889 (vol1. p223. The British authorities tended to be a bit slapdash in registering deaths. This must have been perpetuated in local news reports, as I found the below in a web book about the McMahon murders. Remember that this is not an official report, but someone's writing about it.

Posted Image


But the account would be accurate of the murder.

And again jdoyle's finding of those photos would be useful to you. The comparison he quotes is below

Posted Image


You really want to contact those relations that jdoyle has found for you - there may well be more that they can tell you. The only caveat I have is that the tree owner has put is "Almost certain this is my Grandfather due to name match on Dads Birth Cert". I would agree with that, and think that if you tie together the info from birth, marriage and death certs, plus the 2 children, you should be 100% certain.



#15 Kim_Darke

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:53 PM

GRO must be General Records office. The reference up Volume1 Page 223, what publication are you refering to?

#16 corisande

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:09 PM

Same as in UK you can get a birth, marriage or death cert from General Registrar Office

http://www.groirelan..._for_a_cert.htm

Tells you how to apply and get one