34 replies to this topic

[Story]

khaki, on 15 February 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Hello S>S,
You may have noticed that I have not retreated from what my theory is, however when I ask what people think of it, the request is intended to promote healthy debate., I work in the belief whether misguided or not, that people who share a common interest should demonstrate that individual opinions are just different, not necessarily wrong. If I can assist people I will do my best to give an opinion that they are free to accept or reject. I do not enter into the dangerous realm of lack of proof being evidence of anything. If I am wrong in an opinion, that is fine, no harm done and no hard feelings. Supporting information is fine if it is available, but the lack of it is not a predetermination that any opinion is less worthy.
khaki

Khaki,
I'd thought you'd find this entry from the Oxford Dictionary amusing.

cover (an entire area) with a gun: they were trying to get the Lewis gun up behind some trees from where they would sweep the trench
http://oxforddiction...sweep?region=us

[khaki]

Hello Story,
Thank you for the interesting reference. The Great War has left us with a wonderful legacy of phrases and words many of which survive with us today, others have faded away with the passing of the last participants. Sweeping an area (trench in this reference) was a common phrase of the time, indeed the later development, the Thompson SMG, was often referred to as a trench broom. The continued use of the common military jargon of the day ( eg.,wipers/ypres)is to me a special and unique way of honouring the memory of the Great War veterans.You will probably notice other members who continue to do the same.
regards
khaki

[Tom W.]

centurion, on 17 February 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

The Belgian use of the Lewis gun was all over the British popular press in stories about "the Belgian Rattlesnake" - you just needed to be moderately literate and not live in a hermitage to know about the Lewis Now I can provide plenty of examples of a Stokes being called a trench gun. Can anyone provide one, just one, verifiable example of a Lewis being referred to in this manner?

No. I can give you two:

http://books.google....nch gun&f=false

http://books.google....ch gun"&f=false

[Siege Gunner]

Good find, Tom, and what better provenance than Lewis himself, but those are presumably the only hits on 'Lewis/trench gun' you found, and the term is clearly being used in a specialist context to distinguish the standard Lewis from the aircraft version — "the ordinary standard or trench gun".  Although you've undoubtedly found a co-location of the terms, I think you would perhaps agree that it's a bit like early references to "the first world war".

[Tom W.]

Siege Gunner, on 22 February 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Good find, Tom, and what better provenance than Lewis himself, but those are presumably the only hits on 'Lewis/trench gun' you found, and the term is clearly being used in a specialist context to distinguish the standard Lewis from the aircraft version — "the ordinary standard or trench gun".  Although you've undoubtedly found a co-location of the terms, I think you would perhaps agree that it's a bit like early references to "the first world war".

Trench warfare began in September of 1914. The Lewis gun was adopted by the British on October 15, 1915, and it took a while for them to get into the hands of the troops. There are plenty of references that define the Lewis gun as a weapon specifically used in trench warfare.

http://books.google....nch gun&f=false

If Colonel Lewis wanted to distinguish between a weapon used in aircraft versus one used by soldiers in land warfare, wouldn't he say a ground gun instead of trench gun, unless the specific use of the gun was for in the trenches?  Here Colonel Lewis again says its is for "trench purposes."

http://books.google....nch gun&f=false

Clearly if it was ever called a "trench gun" by British soldiers, the appellation didn't last long, but I don't think it's impossible that on November 6, 1915, soon after the British army adopted the Lewis gun for fighting in the relatively new art of trench warfare, a single soldier would tell his family that he had "put down for a new trench gun," meaning applied to be a gunner for a new machine gun intended for use in the trenches.

[Siege Gunner]

In the hearing transcript you cited, Tom, the term 'trench gun' was first used by a Mr Borie and then later echoed by Colonel Lewis.  Who was Mr Borie?

Personally, I think the reference probably is to the Stokes mortar, but I also seem to recollect that TM batteries were not a popular posting, which makes me wonder about our man 'putting down' for one.

[Tom W.]

Siege Gunner, on 22 February 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

In the hearing transcript you cited, Tom, the term 'trench gun' was first used by a Mr Borie and then later echoed by Colonel Lewis.  Who was Mr Borie?

Personally, I think the reference probably is to the Stokes mortar, but I also seem to recollect that TM batteries were not a popular posting, which makes me wonder about our man 'putting down' for one.

A.E. Borie was head of the Manufacturing Department of the Savage Arms Corporation, which built Lewis guns.

For the most part, the term "trench gun" was clearly used to describe trench mortars. However, we've seen the Lewis gun referred to as a "trench gun" in these hearings. I submit that it's entirely possible that since the manufacturer used the term to describe the weapon, the term was picked up by at least some British troops by word of mouth to describe this new American-made light machine gun for use in the trenches.

Later in the war, "trench gun" was used to describe both 37mm cannons and American 12-gauge shotguns, so it's possible that there was a short time in which some British soldiers used it when referring to the new Lewis gun.

[Siege Gunner]

Thanks again, Tom.  I somehow doubt whether Thomas Atkins read many reports of US Congressional hearings, and the Lewis guns he encountered were more likely made by BSA than by Savage, but I take your point and agree that the Lewis might just possibly have been referred to obliquely as 'the new trench gun' around the time of its introduction to service.

[Tom W.]

Siege Gunner, on 22 February 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Thanks again, Tom.  I somehow doubt whether Thomas Atkins read many reports of US Congressional hearings, and the Lewis guns he encountered were more likely made by BSA than by Savage, but I take your point and agree that the Lewis might just possibly have been referred to obliquely as 'the new trench gun' around the time of its introduction to service.

I'm sure that in 1915 the average British soldier had read every U.S. congressional report of 1917. No question.

[Siege Gunner]