54 replies to this topic

[sotonmate]

Collectors (so not referring to self !)

Out of interest you might like to know of this camouflaged helmet on what seems to be the .com part of the website. Priced in US$ and with a day and nine hours to go the price is $1449. The script refers to it being attributable to 2 MG Company of 46 Regiment,this is marked on the helmet with a name also.

Sotonmate

[auchonvillerssomme]

I am less and less convinced by any camo helmets.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2a193feab2

[sotonmate]

Me too,but not being a Collector. I am merely putting this in front of the afficcianados !
I am wondering about the significance of the stamp "ET62"  which may or may not persuade the serious Collector of it's pedigree.

Sotonmate

[trenchtrotter]

Ok, here goes, having collected theses things for 15 years or so and having about 15 in my collection...

1. ET 62 is maker and size...EisenHutten Werks Thale (German not quite correct..sorry)
2. Fact it is MGK adds no value.
3. Cammo looks ok and has right wear and tear where one would expect it to be and no evidence of overpaint.
4. Interior spot on and liner good.
5. Would I buy it? Well first I dont have the cash and second would want to see it, smell it, touch it and all over spend the night with it (you know what I mean). Cammos are truely faked and most are obvious. This one passes the remote test but thats not saying it is 100%.
6. I prefere less bright examples!

TT

[trenchtrotter]

One of mine...

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[trenchtrotter]

One thing I would add having studied many photos taken in late 1918 particulalrly after Amiens 8/8 and also on the American sectors cammos are common and many Germans can be seen wearing them. Now Cammo American helmets...........?

TT

[4thGordons]

trenchtrotter, on 10 February 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Now Cammo American helmets...........?
TT

Almost all post war IMO I do not recall seeing any photographic records that can definitively be identified as pre Nov 1918 of either cammo painted helmets or helmets (or tunics come to that) with unit patches on them.
I am not saying they don't exist - but after a good deal of looking I haven't seen any that I am convinced are wartime images as opposed to 1919.
Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

4thGordons, on 10 February 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Almost all post war IMO I do not recall seeing any photographic records that can definitively be identified as pre Nov 1918 of either cammo painted helmets or helmets (or tunics come to that) with unit patches on them.
I am not saying they don't exist - but after a good deal of looking I haven't seen any that I am convinced are wartime images as opposed to 1919.
Chris

Chris,

Authentic 1918 or earlier, American camo helmets did/do exist, and of course, as you would expect, they are in Collections in the US.
Here is a selection of 9 authentic examples, all pre-1919.

Regards,
Leo

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•  us camo 3.jpg   64.49K   0 downloads
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•  us camo 1.jpg   66.88K   0 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

5.

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•  us camo 7.jpg   30.38K   0 downloads

[pioneercorps]

Hi Sotonmate

Never collected german items, but always found them to be a lot dearer than any British items, it looks OK, but then at that sort of money, it should. at over £900. 00 in our money.

Regards.
Gerwyn

[Tom W.]

4thGordons, on 10 February 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Almost all post war IMO I do not recall seeing any photographic records that can definitively be identified as pre Nov 1918 of either cammo painted helmets or helmets (or tunics come to that) with unit patches on them.
I am not saying they don't exist - but after a good deal of looking I haven't seen any that I am convinced are wartime images as opposed to 1919.

This photo was dated 1918 in the album where it was originally mounted.

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•  Camo.jpg   62.8K   1 downloads

[sotonmate]

All

Thanks for the info and pics - no reason why an American soldier wold have not taken one home for a souvenir and it being kept safely ever since. But,as I say,I'm no collector and have no wish to own one,but thanks for the views. I just knew someone here would have one similar already,which helps to suggest that it might be an authentic item of the time ! The money is a different matter !
I did mean to mention at some time a chromed 1907 bayonet I saw in a glass case in one of those antique-type emporiums where many people rent space. This was last year in Ventura, California. Not sure if this is the way a true collector would keep such a piece,no doubt it is going to look better (?) and last longer,but do collectors here also have such items ? A step too far for me,original metal and wood required for me to gaze at it in awe, I don't want to comb my hair in the reflection !

Sotonmate

[Dave G]

American soldiers were allowed to keep their helmets at the conclusion of the war. Most, if not all painted helmets were done so post war or during the occupation. It is held by collectors that the painting was even applied shipboard on the voyage back home. A photograph caption of 1918 could still be correct, just post November 11, 1918. It's a mystery that will likely remain so. We on this side of the Atlantic don't hold out much hope for pre 11/11/18 helmets with camouflage or divisional insignia. Perhaps further research will provide new information.

Best Regards,

Dave

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dave G, on 11 February 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

American soldiers were allowed to keep their helmets at the conclusion of the war. Most, if not all painted helmets were done so post war or during the occupation. It is held by collectors that the painting was even applied shipboard on the voyage back home. A photograph caption of 1918 could still be correct, just post November 11, 1918. It's a mystery that will likely remain so. We on this side of the Atlantic don't hold out much hope for pre 11/11/18 helmets with camouflage or divisional insignia. Perhaps further research will provide new information.

Best Regards,

Dave

Dave,
Your suggestion that the photograph is 1918, but post November 11, 1918, means that it must have been photographed in November/December, 1918. I do not know if you have ever been to Europe in the Winter, but neither the light clothing of the American soldiers' uniforms, nor the landscape/vegetation behind them, indicates the Europen Winter months of November or December.
If the caption on the photograph reads 1918, then it looks to have been taken well before November, 1918, probably in the Spring or Summer.
I know many American Collectors and highly respected American Dealers, who would disagree with you.
Regards,
LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dave,
Further confirmation of the freezing November 1918 weather, is contained in a report relating the the last French soldier killed in WW1 :-

" Augustin-Joseph Victorin Trébuchon (30 May 1878 – 11 November 1918) was the last French soldier killed during World War I. He was shot 15 minutes before the Armistice came into effect, at 10.45am on 11 November 1918. The French Army, embarrassed to have sent men into battle after the armistice with the Germans had been signed, recorded the date of his death as earlier by one day.

Trébuchon was halfway between Sedan and Charleville. Rain was falling and the Meuse was flooding. Its width was put at 70m. The temperature was well below freezing. Warfare had destroyed bridges across the river and sappers worked by night and in fog to build a plank footbridge across a lock. There had been no reconnaissance of the other bank because bad weather had kept the spotter plane on the ground. Around 700 men crossed the river a little after 8am, taking a telephone wire with them. Some fell in the river and the first deaths were by drowning.

The fog cleared at 10.30am and the French could see the Germans installed a little higher than them, a few hundred metres away. The French were spread over three kilometres between the Meuse and a railway line. The Germans opened fire with machine guns. The French sent up a spotter plane now that the fog had lifted and the artillery on the other bank could open fire without fear of killing their own side. Darkness fell again at 6pm and the battle continued until news of the armistice arrived.The last of the 91 French soldiers to die was Trébuchon, "with a red hole in his right side" probably a figure of speech as this expression comes from Arthur Rimbaud's very famous poem "Le Dormeur du Val" (The Sleeper in the Valley). He was 40. He fell near the railway line with his message still in his hand. It read "Rassemblement à 11h 30 pour le ravitaillement - "Muster at 11.30 for food." The armistice followed and the French withdrew without honouring their dead. "

And I am sure the weather was even worse in December, 1918.

LF.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Up to the early 80's you rarely saw a camo helmet of any nationality, then some choice items arrived, one I was offerred still smelt of paint, the medics one with the red cross which I believe is still doing the rounds had left skid marks on the shelf where it had sat.

[truthergw]

auchonvillerssomme, on 11 February 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Up to the early 80's you rarely saw a camo helmet of any nationality, then some choice items arrived, one I was offerred still smelt of paint, the medics one with the red cross which I believe is still doing the rounds had left skid marks on the shelf where it had sat.

Perhaps it was genuine WW1 paint applied by a veteran using an MOD brush?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

auchonvillerssomme, on 11 February 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Up to the early 80's you rarely saw a camo helmet of any nationality, then some choice items arrived, one I was offerred still smelt of paint, the medics one with the red cross which I believe is still doing the rounds had left skid marks on the shelf where it had sat.

There is photographic evidence of camo helmets being used in WW1, as in the photo of the American soldiers posted earlier.
However, as with many rare, and sometimes not so rare items, there will always be someone wanting to try and cash in by passing off fakes or doctored items as originals.
LF

[Dave G]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 11 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Dave,
Your suggestion that the photograph is 1918, but post November 11, 1918, means that it must have been photographed in November/December, 1918. I do not know if you have ever been to Europe in the Winter, but neither the light clothing of the American soldiers' uniforms, nor the landscape/vegetation behind them, indicates the Europen Winter months of November or December.
If the caption on the photograph reads 1918, then it looks to have been taken well before November, 1918, probably in the Spring or Summer.
I know many American Collectors and highly respected American Dealers, who would disagree with you.
Regards,
LF

With respect, that picture could have been taken in the United States in a more temperant section of the country. Of course I haven't seen the rest of the photographs mounted in your album to get a better context, but the album could have been put together by the owner at a later date after the war and simply have guessed at the date. The picture alone is not conclusive evidence to disprove the prevailing belief of most WWI American helmet collectors, or at least not this helmet collector of 40 years. We shall respectfully agree to disagree.

Best Regards,

Dave

[ScottM]

This might be of interest, http://www.warrelics...s-gas-masks-44/

As in all things German it is fraught with peril. But many good German helmets came home as souvenirs and both steel and spiked were sent out as mementos with matured war bond certificates in the USA, over their lives some remained as found, many had varnish applied which has now darkened with age and is often the cause of the sheen on helmets, many had linseed oil applied which also darkens as they age, some are 'enhanced' to meet market expectations. I think one needs to keep an open mind and let the artifact tell it's tale. I would hesitate to spend such an amount via eBay though. I'll post some pics of a nice one that came into work as part of donation from a USA WW I vet's son, all still in the trunk as it was packed away in 1920.

[trenchtrotter]

LF,

Of the cammo US helmets you illustrate only one would seem "theatre"....I still dispute any were worn in theatre, maybe the odd one or two or a unit adopting a scheme, however most were done on the wat home or back in the States. Div insignia is most post war also when seen on uniform. Not many theatre made patches.

Having studied in depth many photos I have seem many German Cammos and no American! Also no documentry evidence of a US directive.

I would like a Veteran take home helmet painted with Cammo and insignia and also a diary helmet but would sit content in the knowledge it was a take home and decorated as a souvenir and not worn in the field.

Again we may have to disagree! I too am sceptical of 75 to 80 % of german cammos and have paid good money but only after being 100 % satisfied. As for MG or red cross marked helmets...dream on and dont touch!

A collector with 20 years experience whome doesnt always get it right?

TT

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Dave G, on 11 February 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

With respect, that picture could have been taken in the United States in a more temperant section of the country. Of course I haven't seen the rest of the photographs mounted in your album to get a better context, but the album could have been put together by the owner at a later date after the war and simply have guessed at the date. The picture alone is not conclusive evidence to disprove the prevailing belief of most WWI American helmet collectors, or at least not this helmet collector of 40 years. We shall respectfully agree to disagree.

Best Regards,

Dave

Dave,
As you say, unless we know exactly when and where the photograph was taken, we shall never really know. I certainly respect your undoubted knowledge after having collected American helmets for 40 years, and I am sure that in future as we look at WW1 photographs, many will be looking for that elusive camo helmet photo, for which the date and place can be authenticated.
Regards,
LF

[Tom W.]

Dave G, on 11 February 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

American soldiers were allowed to keep their helmets at the conclusion of the war. Most, if not all painted helmets were done so post war or during the occupation. It is held by collectors that the painting was even applied shipboard on the voyage back home. A photograph caption of 1918 could still be correct, just post November 11, 1918. It's a mystery that will likely remain so. We on this side of the Atlantic don't hold out much hope for pre 11/11/18 helmets with camouflage or divisional insignia. Perhaps further research will provide new information.

Here's a photo in the U.S. National Archives that shows doughboys in France celebrating the announcement of the Armistice.

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[Tom W.]

Closeups of some of the soldiers:

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[Tom W.]

Captain Harvey Dunn was an official war artist who painted American troops in the field during the war. Here's his portrait of a machine gunner.

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