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Question about my Enfield Mk1 Type 2 Bayonet


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#1 Mox

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:27 AM

Hello! I am new to the forum and was sent here by a friend whom said ya'll were quite resourceful. I own an antique mall and picked up an Enfield 1888 Bayonet. I was wondering if anyone may be able to help identify the markings I haven't found, why the blade has the approved bend-test mark but no War Department marking and, most importantly, I am wondering it was in the Second Boer War/how to tell if it was or if any of the markings make it any more special. Here are some pics and I'll list the markings as I can read them after the set:



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It has not been sharpened (though the point is sharp) and is in pretty decent condition. Unfortunately, I lost the scabbard when I moved to the new house and cannot find it (and trust me, I've torn the place apart looking). Sorry about the pics, I know it's presumptuous of me to come in and post so many pics before introducing myself elsewhere. My name is Mox (or Nathan, but friends call me Mox) and next are the markings I can read and what I've been able to identify so far:

One side of blade:

EFD - Enfield
Crown/9/E - Inspector Mark? Not entirely sure
X - Bend-test confirmation

Other side of blade:

Crown over VR - Victoria Regina's reign
12 '98 - December 1898
'05 - 1905 (I assume, though no month accompanies it)
Crown over R[or B] over [?]60, 00, or G0 from what I can make out - Not sure, inspector mark? The two digit number/letter sequence on bottom through me

Blade's Edge:

Crown over D4 over E - Inspector?
under that is
Crown over [?] 43? the first number/symbol is hard to make out. Not sure what this means either.

Handle

Appears to be a "funky" letter F engraved in the metal on the side close to the hole mount

Two numbers on opposite side of hinge

757 (crossed-out)
868 (I assumed these were re-issue numbers from '98 to '05 but that's purely speculative.

Otherwise there is normal petina, but mostly shiny metal, nice color in the wood, nothing loose, and is a piece my wife would like me to sell at some point (I'm fighting her on it, lol), but wanted to see if I could get help with identification/significance to let her know whether it's worth selling or not.

Thanks! Cheers!
Nathan "Mox" Lyke

(I have a couple more pics but this was the max I could upload. If anymore are needed, let me know and I'll post them up again. Thanks again, in advance, for your help as I've scowered the internet for months trying to identify this correctly. Cheers!)



#2 shippingsteel

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:46 AM

I'm only getting the first photo showing but it looks to be a fairly stock standard P1888 bayonet with all the regular markings one would expect to find.
You've got most of their interpretations nailed and the crown/letter symbols are the inspectors marks. The numbers on the handle are 'rack numbers'.
These were used by the regiments for identification and accounting purposes. Sometimes the units also placed their abbreviated name next to them.
The bayonet is certainly of the Boer War period and 'could' have been used, but without any regimental markings its virtually impossible to say for sure.

Cheers, S>S

#3 TRAJAN

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 07:29 PM

Just to say that those are very nice and clear markings! Clearer than anything I have. Thanks for showing!

Trajan

#4 Mox

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:43 PM

Just to say that those are very nice and clear markings! Clearer than anything I have. Thanks for showing!

Trajan



Aye, no problem. I just wish I could find a more resourceful site/sites that explain each marking more accurately. So I'm assuming there's no way to prove whether it was in the Boer War or not, yes? And the little "F" (I'll try to link a picture) is it a scratch or is it a marking?

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#5 Reese

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:31 AM

You've identified most of the marks correctly. 12 '98 is the month and year of manufacture. The '05 means it was re issued in 1905. Rifles, bayonets and other equipment were held in central storage locations and the issued out to various units as needed. Hence the '05 reissue date. As Shippingsteel noted the numbers on the pommel are rack numbers. Each soldier was assigned a specific rifle and bayonet and was responsible for care and cleaning of his equipment. Each bit of gear was numbered as a means of identification. without knowing what unit your bayonet was issued to it is impossible to tell if it actually went to South Africa or not. The most you can say with certainty is that is is the correct model from the correct time period. It is a good representitive piece.

#6 TonyE

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 01:50 PM

I don't normally get involved with bayonets, but just to add a little about the Inspectors' marks. The number/letter combination identifies a particular inspector and the single letter identifies the location of the inspector. For most of yours it is an "E" for RSAF Enfield as one would expect since it was made there. The one with a "B" (not an "R") shows the inspector was based at RSAF Sparkbrook in Birmingham, so that was probably where the bayonet was re-issued from in 1905. Sparkbrook was sold to BSA in 1906.

I suspect that your "F" is in fact a badly struck partial "E".

Regards
tonyE

#7 shippingsteel

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

I suspect that your "F" is in fact a badly struck partial "E".

Not necessarily as you often see 'random' letters stamped singularly on the metal tang of the handle, which I suspect are factory manufacturing proofs.
That is of course if thats where it is stamped in this particular case, as I can't see the photos, and have only the first shot to go by. Pictures would help.!

Cheers, S>S

#8 Mox

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:26 PM

Not necessarily as you often see 'random' letters stamped singularly on the metal tang of the handle, which I suspect are factory manufacturing proofs.
That is of course if thats where it is stamped in this particular case, as I can't see the photos, and have only the first shot to go by. Pictures would help.!

Cheers, S>S



Thanks guys. I don't know why pictures aren't showing up for you, I've posted several. In case anyone else is having the problem, I'll put the direct-links up:

1
2
issue dates
EFD marking
inspector mark over another mark
pommel 1
pommel 2
issue/reissue numbers
look-down pommel
bottom of handle
blade tip
re-link (notice at the bottom of the pic is the "F" I was speaking-of

Let me know if you can see these. If not I will upload them elsewhere and give you a link to the lot.

Thanks again for helping me out!

#9 Mox

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:45 PM

Also wondered, since it has been re-issued and therefore, used; why does mine not-have a WD (War Dept) and Arrow marking on it? Most (all?) others I've looked-up for research have the WD marking and was wondering if the mark was a US thing, if it makes my bayonet rare/more valuable, or if it would make it less valuable to a collector. I've only recently started collecting vintage/antique knives again (my wife doesn't mind but, when I had my amazing collection over 10 years ago, I was dating a girl whom saw them one day and said "they go or I go" basically. I shoulda kept the knives (she had something very bad happen to her involving a knife when she was a child. Even with no knife, just making a stabbing-gesture/motion near or toward her sent her into a near frenzy).

Worst part was, I was just collecting knives I found cheap at thrift shops, flea markets, etc. I sold all 50+ pieces to a man (whom I thought was fair and trustworthy) my dad knew for less than 4 dollars a knife. Turns out, after I opened my antique mall and started researching things I had and things I had gotten rid of, my old case/casexx/solingen/etc were each worth more than what I sold the entire lot for. I did go to the man and said I thought he owed me some more money or some of my knives back since he lied telling me they were junk and trusted because he was a good friend of my father. The *ssh*le told me he had already sold a few of the old bowie knives and bayonets for 2 (or 3) grand already and I wasn't going to see a penny of it. He said "lesson learned." I told him the only lesson I learned was not to trust anyone, and if my dad doesn't come after you for ripping his 15/16 year old son-off intentionally after years of friendship and his promise to pay me fairly, that my dad would no longer be a friend. It happened, dad quit talking to the guy after he refused to give up a little more cash (I wasn't asking for half, but the guy was a knife dealer and clearly knew he was ripping me off. Too bad my fam didn't join the internet tech-age a couple years sooner, haha. Ah well.

#10 shippingsteel

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:16 AM

Thanks guys. I don't know why pictures aren't showing up for you, I've posted several. In case anyone else is having the problem, I'll put the direct-links up:

OK thanks, I've got all the pictures now. That F letter is just like what I described above, a 'random' letter that was applied during the manufacturing process.
As for the Broad Arrow mark which you are looking for, I think it has been poorly stamped above the EFD and has worn more as the blade has been polished.

Its not a bad example of the type, however the buffing of the metalwork has left scratches which do decrease its value, and the timber grips are only average.
So its a good representative example but nothing too valuable (these are common) and without its proper leather scabbard I would think worth about $100 max.

Also the WD lettering alongside the Broad Arrow on these bayonets was discontinued I think from memory around 1896 so that is why you don't have it on yours.

Cheers, S>S

#11 Mox

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:19 AM

Much appreciated. Maybe my kid (3months old) will want to sell it in the future :) Got a new knife dealer that has good prices, trying to avoid temptation, haha

#12 shippingsteel

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:44 AM

Much appreciated. Maybe my kid (3months old) will want to sell it in the future :)

http://www.ebay.com/...ar-Era-RARE-EFD

Looks like this guys kid grew up in a hurry (all of 7 weeks) and wanted to cash in his inheritance.! Don't you just hate that ... :angry2:
People that become members only to trawl for information in order to enhance monetary gain, with no other interest at all in the GW.
Maybe it is just me, but it is a pet hate of mine and probably something we all need to be wary of in the future. I don't see it helping him though.! :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S

#13 TRAJAN

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

I tend to agree with you marrer. Could be of course that he hit a financial difficulty, but even so,...

Trajan

#14 Mox

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:01 PM

http://www.ebay.com/...ar-Era-RARE-EFD

Looks like this guys kid grew up in a hurry (all of 7 weeks) and wanted to cash in his inheritance.! Don't you just hate that ... :angry2:
People that become members only to trawl for information in order to enhance monetary gain, with no other interest at all in the GW.
Maybe it is just me, but it is a pet hate of mine and probably something we all need to be wary of in the future. I don't see it helping him though.! :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S



Don't be so quick to judge. I had to sell this and am selling several other things for my wife's girl (my step daughter) because she started having panic attacks a week and a half ago and the doc found she has an irregular heartbeat and her thyroid levels were off the charts. I wanted to keep this, especially because I have the scabbard in storage somewhere, so if I had come here strictly for monetary gain I would have waited and listed this WITH the scabbard and gotten a lot more money. I'm also going to have to part with all my collected/collectible gaming systems, action figures, pins, buttons, etc. Sorry, but family comes first and when I can assure my wife whom has been through a lot and has extreme anxiety that I can make some money on the side to help pay the bills for all the testing and to see our other daughter's ballet, plus buy them a second bed for their room; I'm going to do it. I asked what I did because I was genuinely interested in what all the markings meant and was hoping the scabbard number matched so I could get more info when we can get into storage (a semi-truck trailer filled from back to front). I know I've no need to explain myself, but don't hate on a guy for having a possibly-very sick daughter and my trying to help financially as I am a stay at home dad and only work my antique mall on the weekends. Your info here has helped me at my mall and I have referred people to this site to ask any other questions they may have. I apologise if I don't stand-up to your criteria, but I've had the bayonet for 3-4 years at least and desperate times called for desperate measures.

And as a side-note, I help customers and dealers every time I work find markings, prices, etc to sell items. I was hoping to give this bayonet to my son one day, but a new guy moved in with some older ones from different countries and, as soon as we get Lily (daughter) taken care of and get caught up on rent and bills, I'll be putting one of them on layaway. I appreciate your help initially, am a bit offended by the jump-to-conclusions game but I send people to this site and don't want you to think I was using you for free information just to sell it (if that had been the case, I would have sold it immediately, aye?). PM me next time if you're worried instead of trying to smear me. Thanks.

#15 shippingsteel

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

Hello! I am new to the forum and was sent here by a friend whom said ya'll were quite resourceful. I own an antique mall and picked up an Enfield 1888 Bayonet.

Hey I'm not surprised at all that the thing ended up on Ebay, when I first saw this post I said to myself "What's the bet this ends up on Ebay" and its now gone full circle (proven).
The only reason anyone ever sells is for monetary gain, and I don't hate you for it or even judge you for it - but like I said before, I do hate the process whereby people are used.

I've seen it before and I'm sure I'll see it again, and every time it happens it just makes the world a smaller place, and people then start to think twice about volunteering to help out.
This is a fantastic site with plenty of wonderful information and also great people willing to help. You're free to do all the research you want here, but you shouldn't waste others time.

Everyone has a reason for selling something, and by the sounds of it you are no different and have some genuine personal reasons of your own, so all the best of luck with that.

Cheers, S>S

#16 Mox

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:16 AM

Don't be so quick to judge. I had to sell this and am selling several other things for my wife's girl (my step daughter) because she started having panic attacks a week and a half ago and the doc found she has an irregular heartbeat and her thyroid levels were off the charts. I wanted to keep this, especially because I have the scabbard in storage somewhere, so if I had come here strictly for monetary gain I would have waited and listed this WITH the scabbard and gotten a lot more money. I'm also going to have to part with all my collected/collectible gaming systems, action figures, pins, buttons, etc. Sorry, but family comes first and when I can assure my wife whom has been through a lot and has extreme anxiety that I can make some money on the side to help pay the bills for all the testing and to see our other daughter's ballet, plus buy them a second bed for their room; I'm going to do it. I asked what I did because I was genuinely interested in what all the markings meant and was hoping the scabbard number matched so I could get more info when we can get into storage (a semi-truck trailer filled from back to front). I know I've no need to explain myself, but don't hate on a guy for having a possibly-very sick daughter and my trying to help financially as I am a stay at home dad and only work my antique mall on the weekends. Your info here has helped me at my mall and I have referred people to this site to ask any other questions they may have. I apologise if I don't stand-up to your criteria, but I've had the bayonet for 3-4 years at least and desperate times called for desperate measures.

And as a side-note, I help customers and dealers every time I work find markings, prices, etc to sell items. I was hoping to give this bayonet to my son one day, but a new guy moved in with some older ones from different countries and, as soon as we get Lily (daughter) taken care of and get caught up on rent and bills, I'll be putting one of them on layaway. I appreciate your help initially, am a bit offended by the jump-to-conclusions game but I send people to this site and don't want you to think I was using you for free information just to sell it (if that had been the case, I would have sold it immediately, aye?). PM me next time if you're worried instead of trying to smear me. Thanks.


I just don't see the issue. I help people determine value, do research for them, etc whenever they ask or need help because I know the info or simply have time to help. My post was purely for information on the bayonet and to make sure I was representing it correctly when people would ask about it at my antique mall (when I had it mounted behind the counter) or my house (when it was mounted on the wall). I researched the web and found all the info I listed, came here to ask if my findings were correct. I feel bad for people whom think they should be compensated for helping someone out, regardless the other person's intentions. If I got paid every time I helped someone identify a piece at the antique mall or gave them advice, I'd be rich. I guess I'll send people to another forum if they have questions because my general customer asking for your URL (which I have printed on cards) are older/elderly and I don't want them to feel harassed if they ask a question and later get a self-righteous person posting a response like they had invaluable knowledge or did hours of research to help them. Not the sort of forum I thought it was, apparently. Ya'll have a good life and try to be a bit less-judgmental. I didn't sell it to buy myself drugs or a video game or any such thing. I sold it because my child is sick and we can't afford the battery of tests they are putting her through. I appreciate the sympathy. I guess the purpose of forums has changed in the 15+ years I've been on them.
Cheers