34 replies to this topic

[76champagne]

I'm hoping this is the right place to post - the Armoured Car Division was part of the Navy at this time. . .

I am researching Edward Henry Anthony Naylor, born 1898 in Hertfordshire. He was a Petty Officer within the RNAS Armoured Car Division (Russia), and his casualty document states that he was an Air Mechanic - would it be likely that he was a mechanic in his civilian employment previously to take on this role, or would this not have been a requirement?

He was awarded the Order of St George (4th class) whilst part of the squadron, but I can't find out what this was for, there seems to be very little information about him other than 1 casualty document. I understand this award was given to 26 men within the Squadron - can anyone shed any light on why they received it?

Many thanks - this is the first time I have found an ancestor in the RN, and the documentation is different to that in the Army!

[James A Pratt III]

There is a book "THe Tsar's British Squadron" that deals with this unit. The Landships.com site has information on the armored cars used and  some photos of them.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

76champagne, on 18 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'm hoping this is the right place to post - the Armoured Car Division was part of the Navy at this time. . .

I am researching Edward Henry Anthony Naylor, born 1898 in Hertfordshire. He was a Petty Officer within the RNAS Armoured Car Division (Russia), and his casualty document states that he was an Air Mechanic - would it be likely that he was a mechanic in his civilian employment previously to take on this role, or would this not have been a requirement?

He was awarded the Order of St George (4th class) whilst part of the squadron, but I can't find out what this was for, there seems to be very little information about him other than 1 casualty document. I understand this award was given to 26 men within the Squadron - can anyone shed any light on why they received it?

Many thanks - this is the first time I have found an ancestor in the RN, and the documentation is different to that in the Army!

Welcome to the Forum,
Attached are 2 photographs relating to the Royal Naval Air Service ( RNAS ), one shows a RNAS Rolls-Royce Armoured Car with a 303-inch Maxim, 1914, the other a lightly armoured RNAS car, late 1914.

With regard to the Russian Order of St. George, 4th Class, were your relative to have received this prestigious award, they would have been in excellent company, as another British recipient of the award was Captain Albert Ball, VC., DSO., MC.

I am also attaching a photograph and details of the Russian Order of St. George, 4th class.
Regards,
LF

Attached Files

•  rnas 2.jpg   47.08K   6 downloads
•  rnas 1.jpg   64.23K   4 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Russian Order of St. George ( 4th class ).
The Order of Saint George was established on 26 November 1769 by Empress Catherine II. The statutes for the order were revised in 1913.  
Originally awarded in six classes, the first four were awarded to officers; the last two classes were awarded to non-commissioned officers. With the death of the Czar, this distinction was removed resulting in four classes.

During World War I, the Order of Saint George was bestowed upon officers for exceptional bravery. The first and second classes were awarded only by decree of the emperor. The third and fourth classes were awarded by approval of the Georgevsky Council, a group of Saint George Knights. Additionally, the third class was only awarded to senior officers while the fourth class was the highest award bestowed upon non-senior officers by the Russian Empire. During the war, a commanding general, with the approval of at least seven Knights of the order, could award the fourth class in the field. Recipients of the Order of Saint George were guaranteed a promotion in rank and were required to wear the medal or its ribbon at all times.

Attached Files

•  order of st george 4th class.jpg   15.2K   1 downloads

[centurion]

The Squadron also operated some Ford  armoured cars in Russia

 ford_ac.jpeg   24.9K   1 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 18 February 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Welcome to the Forum,
Attached are 2 photographs relating to the Royal Naval Air Service ( RNAS ), one shows a RNAS Rolls-Royce Armoured Car with a 303-inch Maxim, 1914, the other a lightly armoured RNAS car, late 1914.

With regard to the Russian Order of St. George, 4th Class, were your relative to have received this prestigious award, they would have been in excellent company, as another British recipient of the award was Captain Albert Ball, VC., DSO., MC.

I am also attaching a photograph and details of the Russian Order of St. George, 4th class.
Regards,
LF

The Squadron in Russia did not use Rolls Royce ACs but Lanchesters like these.


 lanchesters.jpg   94.35K   3 downloads

[horatio2]

76champagne, on 18 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

there seems to be very little information about him other than 1 casualty document.

Presicely what is this "casualty document"?
RNAS records of service, engagements, biographical material, etc are held at the Fleet Air Arm Museum.

[76champagne]

What a response! Thank you so much for this wealth of information.
I have the basic details of Edward's enlistment and wounding/death from the Royal Navy and Royal Marines War Graves Roll WW1.
I am very grateful for the information about the armoured cars themselves, and the details of the Order of St George, and thanks for the information about the records at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, which will be my next step. I will also have to search for a copy of the book mentined.
Many many thanks

[Darren Brown.]

I guess you know the number of his Cross was 636113 4th Class.

Tried up-loading the document but keeps telling me it is too big, even when it is small lol

[MarkTurner]

There was an account of his funeral at Overstrand in the Eastern Daily Press 4 September 1917.

If you private message me your email address I'll send you a scan of a photcopy of the full article.

Mark

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Darren Brown., on 19 February 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

I guess you know the number of his Cross was 25223 4th Class.

Tried up-loading the document but keeps telling me it is too big, even when it is small lol

Darren,
Can you post a copy of the award document ?

[76champagne]

Thank you all - I didn't have his cross number, the only information I have about this is taken from his memorial inscription, so many thanks.
Mark, I have emailed you, thank you so much for your kind offer.

[sotonmate]

76c

The file ADM116/1717 at Kew has a one page entry for each sailor who served in armoured cars in Russia. I will see if I can find the page for PO Naylor shortly.

Sotonmate

[centurion]

76champagne, on 18 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'm hoping this is the right place to post - the Armoured Car Division was part of the Navy at this time. . .

I am researching Edward Henry Anthony Naylor, born 1898 in Hertfordshire. He was a Petty Officer within the RNAS Armoured Car Division (Russia), and his casualty document states that he was an Air Mechanic - would it be likely that he was a mechanic in his civilian employment previously to take on this role, or would this not have been a requirement?

Men normally joined the RNAS as air mechanic  2nd class. I have seen instances of AM2s who were previously, carpenters, miners, and storemen in civilian life so whilst I'm sure they were on the lookout for men who had been mechanics it doesn't seem to have been a sine qua non. Slightly puzzled - I always thought that the rating AM2 and AM1 was below petty officer rank.

[76champagne]

Edward Naylor and his father were gardeners for Lady Battersea at her home in Norfolk, and I have just found a photo on the Cromer Times website of Oliver Locker-Lampson with Lady Battersea - I am not sure how the Squadron were recruited but I guess this could possibly be an answer?

[generalist]

centurion, on 19 February 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Men normally joined the RNAS as air mechanic  2nd class. I have seen instances of AM2s who were previously, carpenters, miners, and storemen in civilian life so whilst I'm sure they were on the lookout for men who had been mechanics it doesn't seem to have been a sine qua non. Slightly puzzled - I always thought that the rating AM2 and AM1 was below petty officer rank.

Carpenters would certainly make sense - there was probably as much carpentry as motor work involved in maintaining aircraft of the period!

Looking at the original man, ADM 171/74, "Decorations awarded to ratings of British Armoured Division in Russia", has an entry for Naylor (p. 19):

Quote

Naylor, EHA  -- P.O. -- 497/ 25223 -- St. George Cross (No. 636123) -- For gallantry under fire and services rendered on the Galician front, 10th August 1917.

He was one of six listed with the same citation, plus another seven with the same date, all St. George Crosses. A note at the end say that all are Fourth Class unless otherwise noted.

-Andrew.

[centurion]

generalist, on 19 February 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Carpenters would certainly make sense - there was probably as much carpentry as motor work involved in maintaining aircraft of the period!

Not much rose pruning though!

[charlesmessenger]

Naylor embarked for Russia on 1/2/17 and landed at Odessa. He was badly wounded (severe head and left arm injuries from shelling) in the very action (Galatz, Roumania) for which he was awarded the Cross of St George. He arrived back in UK on 22/8/17 and died at Chatham Naval Hospital of yellow atrophy of the liver. His prewar address was given as The Pleasure Gardens, Overstrand.

Locker-Lampson lived in Cromer and did recruit locals. The RNACD also included a significant number of Ulstermen, members of the Ulster Volunteer Force keen to demonsrtate trgheir loyalty to UK.

Charles M

[wheelsjbl]

Interestingly one of the men I am researching was also with this division and caused a bit of a stir in bueaucratic ranks.
Guy Trevarton SCHOLL was originally a Lance Corporal with the 10th Lt Horse but left during the war and while serving overseas to become a Sub Lt
in the RNVR..Non com with Australian Forces 1 day, Officer with British forces the next. He seems to have been immediately assigned to the Armoured Car
Division in Russia and of course the paper work got lost so the authorities couldn't find a Lt. SCHOLL in either the Australian Records OR the British ARMY records.
He was even listed as a deserter for a short time!
He ended up as a Major in the Machine Gun Corps (Motor) so it looks like he went from Non Com, Oz Army, Officer RNVR then Officer British Army.

He was awarded
1. Distinguished Service Cross, Lt, RNVR
2. 1914-1915 Star, 135, LCpl, 10th Light Horse Regiment,
3. British War and Victory Medal, Maj, MGC
4. Russian Order of St Anne, 2nd Class with Swords
5. Russian Order of St Anne, 3rd Class with Swords and Bow
6. Russian Order of St Stanislas, 2nd Class with Swords

Just thought it interesting!

Cheers
Brian

[76champagne]

Fascinating all, thank you.
Yes, his father was gardener at the Pleasaunce in Overstrand, Norfolk.  
I have reserved the suggested book at the library.  Was Locker-Lampson's mission unusual - it seems as though he financed it partly himself and through others' funds also.

[Darren Brown.]

Here try, this, from ADM171/74. When at Kew i never read anything, just copy, was told this may contain all awards for the British issued by Russians, was after submariners and got Armoured Cars, submariners i had to get them from St Petersburg.

Attached Files

•  Copy (3) of naylor2.jpg   13.03K   2 downloads
•  Copy (2) of naylor2.jpg   16.73K   2 downloads

[76champagne]

Thanks so much for this.

[sotonmate]

76C

I have the page from ADM116/1717,please send your e-mail by PM and I will post it on to you.

Sotonmate

[sotonmate]

76C

Posted today.

[MarkTurner]

76champagne, on 19 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Mark, I have emailed you, thank you so much for your kind offer.

Hello

Email sent.

Regards
Mark