32 replies to this topic

[whitecll]

Hi, can anyone help identify this RFC badge? I didn't take a picture of the back but it is hallmarked "SILVER". All of my internet googling leads only to brass RFC wings, so I am wondering why this is silver. As far as I know it belonged to my grandfather as a pilot in the RFC, I believe from 1917 to 1918, but I am awaiting a service record to confirm this. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

Sorry - I can't seem to upload photo. Can anyone tell me if silver RFC badges were issued to pilots in 1917-18?

[ScottM]

hi, the basic answer is no. these are probably what are called 'sweetheart' wings bought at jewelers to give to loved ones' typically about an inch and a half long, hallmarked with a clasped pin back. the RFC only used the brass wings for a short time before the war, then the cloth SD variety were used. real brass wings are very scarce, many repros around. real ones often turn up afixed to picture frames.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Cant help with your question, but you need to make sure that the image you are posting is less than 100mb. Try resizing the image and edit your post to attach. Sean

[whitecll]

Thanks for the replies. The pic size must have been the problem, it was 2.1MB! Have attached it now.

It is looking like it must be a sweetheart badge, I am surprised as I have a very un-sentimental family and my grandfather was in the RFC many years before he married and had a family so I can't think who would have bought it and for whom, but I don't suppose I will ever know!

Attached Files

•  Wings4.jpg   36.36K   5 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Whitecll,

A wonderful early RFC Pilot's insignia, you are very fortunate to have it.
The early pattern 1912 RFC pilot's jacket ( without shoulder straps ) did have a gilt-metal pilot's wings attached to the top left of the jacket ( photograph attached ), and possibly these early RFC Pilot's wings were actually silver gilt. Can you see any traces of a gilt finish remaining on your set ?
Also, perhaps those early RFC pilot's could have their pilot's wings made privately by a jeweller, in which case your's may be such a private purchase set ?
Using the photograph, you can also compare the size of your set of wings to the size of that shown in the photograph.

Regards,
Leo

Attached Files

•  RFC gilt wing.jpg   36.89K   2 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Whitecll,
Looking at the scale of the pilot's wings shown in the photograph, it looks to be about 4 inches from wing tip to wing tip, how does that sizing compare to your set of wings ?
LF

[whitecll]

Leo

Thank you for your reply and the photo, it is great to see - I am hoping someone will find one of my grandfather in uniform one day, there was one, but as I said, hopelessly unsentimental family, likes to throw things out!!

I need the service record to be sure but I believe my grandfather joined the RFC in 1917. He would not have been 18 until 1916 so I think it would have to have been at least then. I am learning a lot about military badges - the size of this one now seems to be quite small to have been worn on uniform, which again means it must have been a sweetheart badge. Maybe he bought and kept it himself or his parents bought it, I don't know. I am pretty sure there isn't any gilt on it.

One other thing that seems strange to me is the pattern of the letters in the RFC. All of the pictures I've googled have the letters next to each other, not overlapping, and the F looks almost like an E in them. I suppose if this is a badge made by a jeweller there are a lot of variations. I am not sure how I would know if it was a reproduction, although that seems unlikely as it has been in the family the whole time as far as I know.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Whitecll,
The early RFC insignia I have seen, appears to be the same as that shown on your set of wings, with the bottom leg of the ' R ' crossing the bottom of the stem of the ' F '.
Were you able to measure your badge wing tip to wing tip ?
Leo

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Whitecll,
One other point, you mentioned that the badge is hallmarked ' silver ', is it just stamped ' silver ', or does it have a complete set of silver hallmarks. If so, I can tell from the silver hallmarks when the badge was made.
A complete set of hallmarks will include several impressions, the last of which will be the date letter.
Leo

[ScottM]

these are sweetheart wings, they could have been acquired by anyone in your family at any time, with or without your GF involvement. Leo, the wings in your picture are the dress wings, oddly worn on the maternity tunic, likely 1913-14 era. these rapidly fell out of use as SD was employed and mess/dress uniforms retired for the duration of the war until the RAF regs rendered these obsolete. these wings are widely reproduced and real ones are rare and often turn up on picture frames from the era. here's ahold quick reference on wings http://www.britairfo...m/rfc_wings.htm

still a very nice souvenir silver sweetheart wing.

[whitecll]

That's curious about the style of the insignia. The badge is with my father so I can't measure it at the moment, but it'a pretty small, perhaps 6cm from wing to wing. I had never thought about it before but the wings you see on uniforms are far larger. I had wondered if it might be a cap badge but I didn't find anything about that, obviously I thought metal wings were far more common than they actually are!

There are two hallmarks on the back, one is the stamp "SILVER" and the other one I didn't read closely, a few letters, again I don't have it here now. I will have to ask my father to try and decipher and let me know as it would certainly be good to get a year from the hallmark if it is there.

[whitecll]

ScottM, on 19 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

these are sweetheart wings, they could have been acquired by anyone in your family at any time, with or without your GF involvement. Leo, the wings in your picture are the dress wings, oddly worn on the maternity tunic, likely 1913-14 era. these rapidly fell out of use as SD was employed and mess/dress uniforms retired for the duration of the war until the RAF regs rendered these obsolete. these wings are widely reproduced and real ones are rare and often turn up on picture frames from the era. here's ahold quick reference on wings http://www.britairfo...m/rfc_wings.htm

still a very nice souvenir silver sweetheart wing.

Thanks for the reply, I gather that they are sweetheart wings and appreciate that they could have been acquired by anyone in my family at any time, however they have been with my grandmother and then my father throughout living memory. Most of my grandfather's other relatives were dead not long after 1918, and I think it's highly unlikely that anyone went out and bought them other than my grandfather or possibly his parents!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

whitecll, on 19 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Thanks for the reply, I gather that they are sweetheart wings and appreciate that they could have been acquired by anyone in my family at any time, however they have been with my grandmother and then my father throughout living memory. Most of my grandfather's other relatives were dead not long after 1918, and I think it's highly unlikely that anyone went out and bought them other than my grandfather or possibly his parents!

The silver hallmarks are the best way of dating this item, if you would like to know it's date, let me know the sequence of the stamped hallmarks, and I will gladly look up the date for you.
Due to it's small size, it is a brooch, and nevertheless a wonderful keepsake from your Grandfather.
Leo

[Lancashire Fusilier]

ScottM, on 19 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

these are sweetheart wings, they could have been acquired by anyone in your family at any time, with or without your GF involvement. Leo, the wings in your picture are the dress wings, oddly worn on the maternity tunic, likely 1913-14 era. these rapidly fell out of use as SD was employed and mess/dress uniforms retired for the duration of the war until the RAF regs rendered these obsolete. these wings are widely reproduced and real ones are rare and often turn up on picture frames from the era. here's ahold quick reference on wings http://www.britairfo...m/rfc_wings.htm

still a very nice souvenir silver sweetheart wing.

Scott,
Thanks for the info and link, it is amazing that actual period photographs often contradict what is the commonly held theory. At the end of the day, we are often guessing extactly what these men did, and wore almost 100 years ago.
The pilot in the photograph is Pilot William Percy Parker RFC. He went to France in the Summer of 1914.
Leo

[whitecll]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 19 February 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

The silver hallmarks are the best way of dating this item, if you would like to know it's date, let me know the sequence of the stamped hallmarks, and I will gladly look up the date for you.
Due to it's small size, it is a brooch, and nevertheless a wonderful keepsake from your Grandfather.
Leo

Thanks very much, I'll come back and post details next time I get hold of it!

[alex revell]

These are my Sweetheart wings. They are one and a half inches across the spread of the wings and three quarters of an inch in depth. There is abar across the bottom carying the Ad Astra motto. They are not hallmarked, but are stamped 'Stirling' which denotes they are English silver. They are bright cut, very fine and obviously a quality item. The badge is the size of that I believe was worn on the collar. It is also quite finely made and again, of good quality. Both items are very fine, which does not show to advantage in the photos. PS. I am not able to post photos due to size and the Help with Attaching files, is no help at all. I have tried putting the photos in a zip file, but then I cannot select the file as an attachment. Any suggestions.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

alex revell, on 24 February 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

These are my Sweetheart wings. They are one and a half inches across the spread of the wings and three quarters of an inch in depth. There is abar across the bottom carying the Ad Astra motto. They are not hallmarked, but are stamped 'Stirling' which denotes they are English silver. They are bright cut, very fine and obviously a quality item. The badge is the size of that I believe was worn on the collar. It is also quite finely made and again, of good quality. Both items are very fine, which does not show to advantage in the photos. PS. I am not able to post photos due to size and the Help with Attaching files, is no help at all. I have tried putting the photos in a zip file, but then I cannot select the file as an attachment. Any suggestions.

Alex,
If you have your photographs in a Document file, and then click on the specific file containing the photographs, a box should open offering you various options, including ' emailing ' the photograph. Click on email, and then it will offer the option of resizing/reducing the photograph, click on that option.
I then email the reduced sized photograph back to myself, and then put it back in my document folder, and it is typically much smaller than the 100k max used on this Forum. Remember to delete the original larger size file from your documents.
You can now make your post, and then attach the smaller resized photograph from your document folder.
There may be a better way, however, I know it works as this is the method I always use myself.
Regards,
Leo

[whitecll]

Hi Alex
My photo was 2.1MB to start and I had the same problem, I got it down to 40kb by re-saving it about five times, selecting lower quality each time  and re-naming each newly saved photo). I don't know if this will help you to attach your pic?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

whitecll, on 24 February 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Hi Alex
My photo was 2.1MB to start and I had the same problem, I got it down to 40kb by re-saving it about five times, selecting lower quality each time  and re-naming each newly saved photo). I don't know if this will help you to attach your pic?

Try the resizing method, posted above, it should be a lot easier.
Leo

[alex revell]

Here's one

Attached Files

•  wings.jpg   63.14K   5 downloads

[alex revell]

Here's the other

Attached Files

•  sweetheart wings.jpg   42.06K   1 downloads

[alex revell]

Leo and Whitecll,
Thanks for your suggestions. I couldn't follow your's Leo. For some reason clicking the file didn't give me the option of emailing the photos. But it did give me an idea. I opened them in my photo prog - Picassa - sent them to myself via its Email option. For some reason, unbeknown only to Computer buffs, that resized them. I opened my Email, put the photos in MY Documents and selected them from there.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

alex revell, on 25 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Leo and Whitecll,
Thanks for your suggestions. I couldn't follow your's Leo. For some reason clicking the file didn't give me the option of emailing the photos. But it did give me an idea. I opened them in my photo prog - Picassa - sent them to myself via its Email option. For some reason, unbeknown only to Computer buffs, that resized them. I opened my Email, put the photos in MY Documents and selected them from there.

Alex,
Whatever you did, it worked, and you are fortunate to have two excellent RFC sweetheart brooches.
Regards,
Leo

[alex revell]

Leo,
Is the small badge also a sweethreart brooch. I didn't know that. Many thanks. Some years ago now, when my then wife and I attended antique fairs on a very regular, weekly basis, I had the chance to buy a set (4 pairs) of RFC gold cufflinks. I thought about it for a while - always fatal because when i went back they had been sold. I've regretted it ever since.
Alex

[Lancashire Fusilier]

alex revell, on 25 February 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Leo,
Is the small badge also a sweethreart brooch. I didn't know that. Many thanks. Some years ago now, when my then wife and I attended antique fairs on a very regular, weekly basis, I had the chance to buy a set (4 pairs) of RFC gold cufflinks. I thought about it for a while - always fatal because when i went back they had been sold. I've regretted it ever since.
Alex

Those RFC gold cufflinks would have been nice.
With reference to the small set of silver wings, based both on the information already posted, and the information from reference books, that is also either a lady's brooch or a man's lapel badge.
Regards,
Leo