58 replies to this topic

[Martin G]

Hello... For anyone interested in researching units and  men who served in India immediately prior to WWI,  Ancestry.com  has just opened up an extremely useful link listing the units and the men serving in units in India at the time. Thanks to GWF member Hazel Clark for flagging this - see her post in this section for instructions on how to get to the data) It is a 4,000 page un-indexed list of units naming every man in each unit plus wives and children (I am about to post a rough index this weekend for the units - stand by). It covers 42 Regular 1st and 2nd Bns of Line Infantry Regiments  plus a number of RFA, RGA and Mountain Bty units and six Line Cavalry regiments. The website on Ancestry provides a drop down transcribed list of men, with ages, rank, first names, place of birth etc (only 30 per page so there is a bit of work to be done) Given it is 1911 and the Regular Army, many (most in fact) of the men listed would have fought from 1914/15 onwards, especially in the Divisions formed from these units. ..... so anyone trying to rebuild lists of men who served in a Bn, it is an extremely good starting point if the 1914 nominal rolls have gone AWOL.

[Edit -this is how to access]
1. Open Ancestry website.
2. On the top bar, click on Search and a drop-down menu will appear...on the drop-down click on "Census and Electoral Rolls"
3. On the right hand side, half way down, under "Featured Data and Collections" click on "1911 England Census"
4. On the right hand side, under "Browse this Collection" in the box headed "County" click on "Military" and under "Civil Parish" drop-down menu click on "Not Stated" rather than "All". This part is important. If you click "All" you will only get to the 1114 page document that summarises the India garrison with one page per unit. The main document is over 4,000 pages
5. Click on "India"...wait a few seconds and the front page should appear....there should be a thin bluish-grey bar immediately above the image with Military> India> Page 1 of 2905 with navigation arrows lef and right....by typing in the box with the page number it should take you straight to that page....

Example: It is possible to effectively rebuild an nominal roll that provides a fascinating snapshot of the demographics of a battalion. I have trawled the 4th Bn Worcestershire Regt and it lists 1,041 named men (all ranks). The demographics are fascinating (to me at least), especially of some of the Irish battalions who do not appear to be particularly 'Irish'  given the plethora of English Scots and welsh in their ranks.  Some snippets from the 4th Bn Worcestershire Regt:

1. 1,041 men of which only 55 (5.2%) were married. Average ages

Captains ....32.8
Lts.............25.7
2nd Lts......22.4
QM...............47 (widower)
C/Sgts..........32.2
Sgts.............30.4
L/Sgts........27.5
Cpls...........25.4
L/Cpl.........24.2
Ptes..........23.3 (age range 16 to 34)

The Lts were (on average) the same age as the Cpls and the 2nd Lts were (on average ) younger than the Private soldiers. Perhaps not surprising as the ranks were full of old soldiers. There were some quite young NCOs. Youngest C/Sgt was 27 and the youngest Sgt was 24.

2. Country of Birth. Men came from (were born in?) 11 different countries

England............983 ...........94% (no surprise there)
Ireland................16
Wales.................10
British India........7
Scotland.............3
South Africa.........3
Australia..............1
Canada...............2
Malta...................2
West Indies.........1
USA.....................1

3. Counties. Within the English contingent the men came from 35 different counties (that slightly surprised me). The main sources were:

Warwickshire...........231.........22.2%
Worcestershire........216........20.7%
Staffordshire............136........13.1%
Kent...........................79...........7.6%  Kent? Miles from Worcestershire.....and provided the 4th largest contingent. Interesting.
Middlesex.................63...........6.1%
and 30 other counties in England including 4 from the Channel Isles.

It is possible to reconstruct the nominal rolls of the following units (as at 1st April 1911)

4. List of Line Infantry units (note all generally have Company listed separately) [Edit landing page numbers added. Please note the 'landing' page is not necessarily the first page of each unit, merely a page somewhere near the front. Each Bn is roughly 50-60 pages per Bn. If there are any mistakes, PM me and I will amend. MG] This has now been edited and the numbered pages are the first pages of each Bn's census. MG

1st Bn Royal Scots P.30 & p.2782
2nd Bn The King's Own Regt   p.2395
1st Bn Northumberland Fus p.2027
2nd Bn Royal Fus p.385 & p.516
2nd Bn East Yorks p.2481
1st Bn POW West Yorks p.1975
2nd Bn Leicestershire Regt p.2255
1st Bn R Irish Regt p.3439
1st Bn Lancs Fus p.2835
2nd Bn Cheshires p.564
2nd Bn RWF p.255
1st Bn KOSB p.3295
2nd Bn Worcestershire Regt p.898
4th Bn Worcestershire Regt p.3192
2nd Bn East Lancs p.403

1st Bn West Riding p.3182

1st Bn R Sussex Regt p.1923
1st Bn South Lancs p.3107
2nd Bn Black Watch p.2089
1st Bn Ox & Bucks p.2200
1st Bn Essex Regt (split into A Coy to H Coy) p.309-373
1st Bn Sherwood Foresters p.3910
2nd Bn R Berkshires p.1298 & p.1431
2nd Bn King's Shropshire LI p.3981
1st Bn Middlesex Regt p.2613
3rd Bn Middlesex Regt p.2557
3rd KRRC p.198
4th Bn KRRC p.1343
1st Bn Manchesters p.462
2nd Bn North Staffs Regt p.1795
1st Bn York & Lancs p.1578
1st Bn DLI p.617
1st Bn HLI p.1043
1st Bn Seaforth Hldrs p.3251
2nd Bn Gordon Hldrs p.961
2nd Bn Cameron Hldrs p.3768
2nd Bn R Irish Fus p.3587
1st Bn Conaught Rangers P.100-152
2nd Bn Leinsters P.27-73
1st Bn Royal Munster Fus p.1847
2nd Bn Rifle Bde p.2678

Line Cavalry:

17th Lancers
6th Inniskilling DG
1st KDG
1st Royal Dragoons
14th King's Hussars
7th DG

13th Hussars

I have identified a 'landing page' for each of the above units. While it is not in every case the first page, it will save researchers  a bit of time trying to randomly find their unit in the haystack of 4,000 pages. I will edit the post later with the landing pages [Edit: done] and add the RFA and RGA units.

Regards

MG

P.S. I have no commercial interest in Ancestry. In fact they drive me to distraction at times.

Edit: The following units are in a separate section section "Ceylon & India" (470 pages)
1st Bn Lincolnshire Regt .................p.22 - 102
1st Bn  Royal Dublin Fusiliers .........p.103 - 153
2nd Bn Loyal North Lancs .................p.154 - 205
1st Bn Royal Warwickshire Regt...... p. 208 - 257
2nd Bn Dorset Regt.............................p. 263 - 318.

[NigelP]

To fill in one of the question marks in this comprehensive list, the North Staffs battalion I'd the 2nd.

[Martin G]

NigelP, on 23 February 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

To fill in one of the question marks in this comprehensive list, the North Staffs battalion I'd the 2nd.

Thanks (couldn't read my own notes) will edit the list. MG

[GRUMPY]

A great piece of work, and hard work at that.

You did not point out that almost ALL of the 1911 men would become Old Contemptibles, in that they were either still serving in 1914 or would not have completed their reserve liability. The exceptions: the long-serving men who went out on pension in the interim, the ones who died, the ones who were unfit, and a small cadre kept behind to train the New Armies. This must be the best tool for detailed demographics of the Old Sweats who fought the good fight at Mons, le Cateau and First Ypres.

[NigelP]

You also need to discount those battalions that stayed abroad. My grandfather is one of those listed in the 1911 census and he, and his battalion, spent the entire war in India. I don't know what the turnover was in men sent home or posted to other battalions but there must be quite a lot in the same position - Regulars who went nowhere near any of the theatres of war.

[Martin G]

GRUMPY, on 23 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

A great piece of work, and hard work at that.

You did not point out that almost ALL of the 1911 men would become Old Contemptibles, in that they were either still serving in 1914 or would not have completed their reserve liability. The exceptions: the long-serving men who went out on pension in the interim, the ones who died, the ones who were unfit, and a small cadre kept behind to train the New Armies. This must be the best tool for detailed demographics of the Old Sweats who fought the good fight at Mons, le Cateau and First Ypres.

You make a good point. I am not a Western Fronter but I had assumed that would probably be the case.  I am researching the 4th Bn Worcestershires in Gallipoli. This Bn had horrendous casualties there (particularly on 6th Aug when the Bn (recently reinforced) was virtually wiped out: KIA, WIA, MIA and POW exceeding 750. It will be interesting to see how many of the India men were present at Helles. Over time I hope to trawl all the Bns and get better quality aggregate data.  I thought the demographics were quite interesting and I was mildly surprised that the Private soldiers were in their 20s with relatively few teenagers.

Having seen a few of the Bns it seem clear that many of the County regiments recruited from far outside their territorial (with a small 't') county borders and often had more men from outside the county than from in it. I have long thought that the 'Irishness' of some of the Irish Bns was greatly exaggerated  - even in the Service Bns - and the data here provides some supporting evidence among the Regular Bns. I will post an Irish Bn this weekend to illustrate.

I think the great convenience of this link is that a large chunk of the standing Regular Army that went to War in 1914 is all lined up ready to be counted, sifted and researched. I have an interest in the 29th Div whose Bns mostly came from this group. Having re-assembled the MICs of a Yeomanry Regiment of 1,500 souls I can certainly attest to the fact that this will save many hours of work for those trying to assemble nominal rolls.

MG.

Edit: The Units that formed parts of the 29th Div would not be Old Contemptibles as they went to Alexandria then Gallipoli.

2nd Bn Royal Fus
1st Bn Lancs Fus
1st Bn KOSB
4th Bn Worcestershires

[Martin G]

NigelP, on 23 February 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

You also need to discount those battalions that stayed abroad. My grandfather is one of those listed in the 1911 census and he, and his battalion, spent the entire war in India. I don't know what the turnover was in men sent home or posted to other battalions but there must be quite a lot in the same position - Regulars who went nowhere near any of the theatres of war.

I think these were very few in number as a proportion of the 42 listed above (actually 41 as I listed 4th Bn KRRC twice), and I suspect that even if the Bn stayed, many of the men would have volunteered to served on the War front to be replaced by reservists. Units from the list above that remained in India throughout:

1st Bn DLI
2nd Bn N Staffs
1st Bn R Sussex
1st Bn South Lancs
2nd Bn King's

...so 5 of 41 = 12.2%

MG

[hazel clark]

Hi Martin!

That is an incredible piece of work!  In that you went through the whole thing, I don''t suppose you came across any 1st Seaforths listed elsewhere in the record?  I couldn't find my Grandfather and he doesn't seem to be listed in Scotland anywhere either. He joined in 1907.

Thanks,
Hazel C.

Martin G, on 23 February 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Thanks (couldn't read my own notes) will edit the list. MG

[CarylW]

Thanks for posting this Hazel and MG. My great uncles were in India at that time in the 2nd Bn E. Yorks. They did go on to be Old Contemptibles. I'll have a try at finding them

[Martin G]

hazel clark, on 23 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Hi Martin!

That is an incredible piece of work!  In that you went through the whole thing, I don''t suppose you came across any 1st Seaforths listed elsewhere in the record?  I couldn't find my Grandfather and he doesn't seem to be listed in Scotland anywhere either. He joined in 1907.

Thanks,
Hazel C.

Seaforth's landing page is p.3251

[Martin G]

Kate Carney, on 23 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Thanks for posting this Hazel and MG. My great uncles were in India at that time in the 2nd Bn E. Yorks. They did go on to be Old Contemptibles. I'll have a try at finding them

2nd Bn E Yorks landing page is p.2500

[CarylW]

Martin G, on 23 February 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

2nd Bn E Yorks landing page is p.2500

Blimmin 'eck, that was quick. Many thanks!

[hazel clark]

Sorry Martin, I looked at the Seaforths list when I found the site.  I meant to ask if they were only listed in that one section, or if some of them were in a different place in India at the time.
H.C.

Martin G, on 23 February 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Seaforth's landing page is p.3251

[Martin G]

hazel clark, on 23 February 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Sorry Martin, I looked at the Seaforths list when I found the site.  I meant to ask if they were only listed in that one section, or if some of them were in a different place in India at the time.
H.C.

I only saw them in one section. Some Bns are listed in two areas as (I assume) they had detachments on different locations. The caveat is that I hopped about 20-45 pages each time and when I 'landed' I scrolled back to the beginning of each Bn. A Bn takes roughly 50-60 pages so It is unlikely that I missed a whole Bn. I will do a more accurate version at the weekend and edit if necessary. An alternate method is to search for a man via the Military /1911 census and that will create a landing page, then work outwards from there. MG

I have added rough landing pages to the original post.

[hazel clark]

Thanks!
H.C.

Martin G, on 23 February 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

I only saw them in one section. Some Bns are listed in two areas as (I assume) they had detachments on different locations. The caveat is that I hopped about 45 pages each time and when i 'landed' I scrolled back to the beginning of each Bn. A Bn takes roughly 50-60 pages so It is unlikely that I missed a whole Bn. I will do a more accurate version at the weekend and edit if necessary. An alternate method is to search for a man via the Military /1911 census and that will create a lading page, then work outwards from there. MG

I have added rough landing pages to the original post.

[Bardess]

May I add a link to the Royal Navy 1911 Census for Hampshire - all relating to Army personnel

[Graham Stewart]

Martin - have you got a direct link to the initial start of this most useful list, or is it a drawn out process of registering etc and are downloads available? The 1st Bn, Northumberlands is a must have for myself.

[GrahamC]

Am I being a bit dim here (.... pause for affirmation ...) but which bit of Ancestry is it in - can't find it.  (In the words of Sir Tel - "Is it me?")

[themonsstar]

One of the lads on the Manchester forum brought this up last year, about being able to get a nominal role for the 1st Battalion based in India in 1911 last year, he also did the same research on the census of Ireland, the problem with the one for Ireland is military unit only had to put initials down the census for christian name and surname,the research takes a long longer trying to find your man.

[MickLeeds]

GrahamC, on 24 February 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Am I being a bit dim here (.... pause for affirmation ...) but which bit of Ancestry is it in - can't find it.  (In the words of Sir Tel - "Is it me?")

Go to Search on the front page - Census & Electoral Rolls - Choose 1911 England & Wales Census & Summary Books - Choose England 1911 Census. On the right of the page under browse you can choose which county, from this list select  military and then select country.



Mick.

[GrahamC]

Thanks very much, Mick, no wonder I couldn't find! In fact didn't know that link was even there. I know Ancestry has the 1911 Census, but it doesn't pop up on the Census lists with the others.  I can cancel my subscription to 'Find my Past' now!

Thanks again
Graham

[Martin G]

Graham Stewart, on 24 February 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Martin - have you got a direct link to the initial start of this most useful list, or is it a drawn out process of registering etc and are downloads available? The 1st Bn, Northumberlands is a must have for myself.

I am a subscriber.... I think you have to be a subscriber to access this level of detail. MG

P.S. I have now added the exact landing page for each Regiment's Census returns in the original post.

[generalist]

Bardess, on 24 February 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

May I add a link to the Royal Navy 1911 Census for Hampshire - all relating to Army personnel

The Aldershot garrison is in the Farnborough area of Hampshire, mainly registration district 13-14. Interestingly, there's a selection of married NCOs in sections 5 and 6 (5 is page 400 on, I didn't take a note for 6) - presumably some married quarters on home postings were outside the camp proper?

So, another five infantry battalions. (Interestingly, I can't seem to see any cavalry, though there are cavalrymen in the detention barracks): - the cavalry is stationed with the other units; see two posts below.

* Malplaquet Barracks, p. 7 -  1st Norfolk Regiment, some Air Battalion RE and 1st Rifle Brigade
* Ramillies Barracks, p. 78 - 2nd Coldstream Guards, some various.
* Tournay Barracks, p. 220 - 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers
* Oudenarde Barracks, p. 292 - 1st Cameron Highlanders, some various.
* Lille Barracks, p. 390 - Royal Artillery
* Detention Barracks, p. 436 - various
* Blenheim Barracks, p. 460 - 2nd Grenadier Guards, some various. (On p. 487, incidentally, four generals), remainder Air Battalion RE
* Connaught Hospital, p. 534 - misc.

If England and Wales are available, plus Ireland seperately, that means almost all the regular units should be traceable somewhere in the 1911 census - the exceptions would be any stationed in Scotland. Assuming the summer 1914 postings are much the same as they were in 1911, there were two infantry battalions garrisoned north of the border at this time (one in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh), plus three RFA batteries and a small smattering of ASC, RE, etc. - and, of course, all the Scottish regimental depots.

-Andrew.

[battiscombe]

Note that with the Irish census data not all the records are limited to initials - some units provide full names (mistakenly it seems - not reading the instructions! - some provide service numbers) - but it can be very variable. I have looked mainly at RFA units and you find one battery has full names and the next, in the same Brigade, has only initials - but when compared with 1914 star rolls the initials can sometimes make sense.. which with the Indian data in fact comprises a substantial part of the RFA and RHA

[generalist]

generalist, on 24 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The Aldershot garrison is in the Farnborough area of Hampshire, mainly registration district 13-14. Interestingly, there's a selection of married NCOs in sections 5 and 6 (5 is page 400 on, I didn't take a note for 6) - presumably some married quarters on home postings were outside the camp proper?

So, another five infantry battalions. (Interestingly, I can't seem to see any cavalry, though there are cavalrymen in the detention barracks):

More Aldershot, in he Aldershot area of Surrey (being on a county boundary is confusing): registration district 13. (I skimmed the earlier districts and didn't see any barracks sheets, but haven't checked closely).

* Royal Artillery Barracks, p. 55 - Royal Artillery
* Barrosa Barracks, p. 100 - 2nd Sussex Regiment, some ASC
* 19th Hussars, p. 172
* 2nd Dragoon Guards, p. 244
* 3rd Dragoon Guards, p. 316
* 1st Cav Brigade RHA, p. 390
* Albuera Barracks, p. 433 - various, inc. RAMC, 4th Middlesex? (Book is very stained)
* Gibraltar Barracks, p. 503 - Royal Engineers
* Badajoz Barracks, p. 647 - 1st Hampshire Regiment.
* Salamanca Barracks, p. 719 - 1st East Yorkshire Regiment. (The officer completing this was smart, and used a rubber stamp in the "regiment" field...)
* Talavera Barracks, p. 795 - 1st Leicestershire Regiment.
* McGregor Barracks, p. 867 - various, plus RAMC. Includes hospital patients.
* Mandora Barracks, p. 939 - 2nd Royal Iniskilling Fusiliers, AOC
* Corunna Barracks, p. 1011 - 4th Royal Fusiliers, ASC
* Maida Barracks, p. 1073 - 1st Bedfordshire, various
* Buller Barracks, p. 1251 - ASC

Another eight infantry battalions, for a total of thirteen, and three cavalry regiments. The 1914 list gives fourteen battalions of infantry at Aldershot and three cavalry regiments - I wonder if there was one fewer stationed there in 1911, or if one barracks is in yet another census area?

- Andrew.