28 replies to this topic

[high wood]

This unknown officer is wearing an unusual shoulder title/badge which I cannot identify. Does anyone recognise the badge or can identify the regiment/unit? The only shoulder title that I can find with a similar curved scroll at the bottom is the officer's pattern Royal Inniskillng Fusiliers.

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•  Off.JPG   54.8K   0 downloads
•  Off ST.JPG   34.5K   0 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

high wood, on 26 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

This unknown officer is wearing an unusual shoulder title/badge which I cannot identify. Does anyone recognise the badge or can identify the regiment/unit? The only shoulder title that I can find with a similar curved scroll at the bottom is the officer's pattern Royal Inniskillng Fusiliers.

I think it is perhaps the badge worn as a shoulder title by the Tyneside Irish battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers.  It may well be that the officers did not wear collar badges 'as well'.

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•  tynesideirish.jpg   86.83K   0 downloads

[pioneercorps]

Hi

You could be right, didn't the 24th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers ( Tyneside Irish ) not only wore the badge on the shoulder, they would also wear a Battalion number as well. Or did Officers not wear this Battalion number.

Regards.
Gerwyn

[high wood]

I would be very pleased if he was Tyneside Irish. However, there is no indication as to where the photograph was taken. Just the message, "yours truly, Jack".

His buttons do appear to have letters around the rim with something in the centre which might well fit in with the Northumberland Fusiliers.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

I am afraid that is not correct, Tyneside Irish Officers only wore NF badges the TI shoulder title was worn by OR's only.

The only Tyneside Irish identifier worn by an officer was the battle patch. Three were worn one on each shoulder and one on the left of the steel helmet.I had the good fortune to see a full set that belonged to Captain George Swinburn when researching the book. the stalk of the shoulder title pointed forward and the stalk on the helmet patch was straight. However the photos I have collected show many variations. Chappell shows a 2/Tyneside irish Officer with a brass 2 on the patch. The only photographic evidence I have of numbers on the patch is the 27 of the shoulder title being worn when the harp was moved to the collar in 1917 again OR's only

Later steel helmets had an outline of the NF grenade instead.

You may see Silver TI badges for sale as "officers collar" they are fake TI officers wore NF Grenades of varying patterns although I did buy one years ago.

regards

John

[Tyneside Chinaman]

The badge shown in Frogsmile post is most likely a fake

It has a slider - TI badges have lugs either north and south or east and wes.

the main indicator is that the strings of the harp should be voided.

also it should have the numbers 24, 25, 26, 27 or 30 above and the letters NF below.

A lot of badges were broached as sweetheart badges especially the early ones.

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[pioneercorps]

The badge shown in Frogsmile post is most likely a fake

It has a slider - TI badges have lugs either north and south or east and wes.

the main indicator is that the strings of the harp should be voided.

also it should have the numbers 24, 25, 26, 27 or 30 above and the letters NF below.

A lot of badges were broached as sweetheart badges especially the early ones.

Hi John

To clear this up for me, these numbers 24, 25,26, 27, or 30, you are saying, are not battalion numbers.
The badge I have, as got the lugs top to bottom.

Regards.
Gerwyn

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

Yes each battalion wore its number above the harp as in the photo's, but only worn by other ranks.

Here is a TI Officer with NF title and Shamrock battle patch

regards

John

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[high wood]

John,

thank you for your clarification regarding the Tyneside Irish. I have attempted to enlarge the button and shoulder title but at a size that can be posted on the forum a lot of definition is lost.

Simon.

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•  Off ST.JPG   10.15K   1 downloads
•  Offbut.JPG   43.35K   1 downloads

[pioneercorps]

high wood, on 26 February 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I would be very pleased if he was Tyneside Irish. However, there is no indication as to where the photograph was taken. Just the message, "yours truly, Jack".

His buttons do appear to have letters around the rim with something in the centre which might well fit in with the Northumberland Fusiliers.

Hi. The more I look at it, but I have tried to back it up with proof, which I cant find, but being me , if it is a British Offcer, ( I am now putting on my helmet and waiting for incoming ) , Army Medical Corps.

Regards.
Gerwyn

[Tyneside Chinaman]

The TI shoulder title doesn't show up well in photos,

here the Sgt wears the Bn number 24 and the NF but no harp, the Bandsman wears the lot but very blurred

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•  ti bandsman.jpg   78.63K   0 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

This thread is certainly getting intriguing.  It was more unusual for collar badges not to be worn by officers, although one can see in this case a TI officer posted by Tyneside Irishman without them.  It was usually Rifle regiments that dispensed with collar badges, but then his buttons are not black so that seems like a non-starter.  Curiouser and curiouser!

[pioneercorps]

Hi John

Thank you for your help, great photos Mate .

Regards.
Gerwyn

[Paul Reed]

Simon - I have seen similar photos of men in OTCs and other cadet type units. No collar badge but school/college/Uni badge on the shoulders.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Not unusual for TI officers not to be wearing collar badges or shoulder titles.

Here is Captain & QM Francis Treanor with Captain George Coleby MC MM. Coleby wears small blue shamrock but no collar badge, the QM has collars but no shamrocks.

regards

John

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[Grovetown]

Tyneside Chinaman, on 26 February 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

The badge shown in Frogsmile post is most likely a fake

Indeed: the image is from the Waterford County Museum site - and they describe it, at least, as a reproduction. Shame they don't realise that it's also incorrect.

Waterford Museum page

Cheers,

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

Tyneside Chinaman, on 26 February 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Not unusual for TI officers not to be wearing collar badges or shoulder titles.

Here is Captain & QM Francis Treanor with Captain George Coleby MC MM. Coleby wears small blue shamrock but no collar badge, the QM has collars but no shamrocks.

regards

John

Thanks for posting that John, it is interesting.  I had always known that needs must had led to a lot of the Service Battalions doing their own thing when compared with Regulars and Territorials, but it is all the more fascinating to see pictorial evidence on this forum.

[FROGSMILE]

Grovetown, on 27 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Indeed: the image is from the Waterford County Museum site - and they describe it, at least, as a reproduction. Shame they don't realise that it's also incorrect.

Waterford Museum page

Cheers,

GT.

Yes I was aware that it was a repro GT, but it served the purpose of simply showing the similarity in general shape to the badge on the OP's photo.

[Grovetown]

[quotename='FROGSMILE' timestamp='1330336824' post='1717570']
Yes I was aware that it was a repro GT, but it served the purpose of simplyshowing the similarity in general shape to the badge on the OP's photo.
[/quote]

[size="2"]Well that's all all right then.

Although, apart from the various issues arising from using images unacknowledged, this may have encouraged the hastier or inexperienced reader to buy one of these currently available, for instance, on eBay. Happily, the others stepped in.

Still: we know what looks similar now.

[/size][size="2"]Cheers,

GT.
[/size]

[Graham Stewart]

FROGSMILE, on 26 February 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

This thread is certainly getting intriguing.  It was more unusual for collar badges not to be worn by officers, although one can see in this case a TI officer posted by Tyneside Irishman without them.  It was usually Rifle regiments that dispensed with collar badges, but then his buttons are not black so that seems like a non-starter.  Curiouser and curiouser!

Funnily enough I have a 1916 copy of "Standing Orders" for the regular battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, which if I remember correctly that "collar badges are not to be worn with SD". Sadly it's thousands of miles away, so can't confirm it.

[pioneercorps]

Indeed: the image is from the Waterford County Museum site - and they describe it, at least, as a reproduction. Shame they don't realise that it's also incorrect.

Waterford Museum page

Cheers,

GT.
Hi GT

Very informitive posts, so the one I have, though could still be a repro, would a acceptable one, as to what would have been worn then.

Regards.
Gerwyn

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•  T IRISH 2.jpg   15.44K   0 downloads

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi,


Notice the difference in the patina. I've had this since 1963.

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[FROGSMILE]

Grovetown, on 27 February 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well that's all all right then.

Although, apart from the various issues arising from using images unacknowledged, this may have encouraged the hastier or inexperienced reader to buy one of these currently available, for instance, on eBay. Happily, the others stepped in.

Still: we know what looks similar now.

Cheers,

GT.

I am not sure if that is meant to be sarcastic, humorous, or both.

[FROGSMILE]

Graham Stewart, on 27 February 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Funnily enough I have a 1916 copy of "Standing Orders" for the regular battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, which if I remember correctly that "collar badges are not to be worn with SD". Sadly it's thousands of miles away, so can't confirm it.

That's interesting Graham, perhaps it was only some of the Service battalions that wore collar badges then.  I think the wedding pic might be one of yours?

And here are two regular battalion officers without collar badges as you have suggested.

Interesting that one (Lt Col Ritson) is wearing both shoulder straps of his Sam Browne.

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•  post-3617-126297146373.jpg   55.03K   0 downloads
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•  post-8006-125465693767.jpeg   41.37K   0 downloads

[old owl]

Hi All,

I have checked many WW1 N.F. officer portraits and certainly agree that there appears to be no set pattern for the wearing of collar badges, however, it does appear that regular officers did not generally wear the collars in service dress and except wore the shoulder titles--see the last to photos produced by Frogsmile.  The only collars worn by regular officers appear to be the bullion type worn on the No1? Dress.

It would also seem to be general practice for all territorial officers to wear the collar badges with the addition of the 'T' beneath, but with no shoulder titles.  Also many of the service battalions seem to have worn the collar badges but with no shoulder title.  It may be of course that as the war progressed the wearing of collar badges diminished due to shortages in supply and officers only wore the cap and shoulder badges as identification.

In  "Irish Heroes in The War", the group photos of T.I. officers show them all wearing the normal N.F. badge and collars, it is not possible to see if they have any shoulder titles.  By contrast the T.S. officers had their own badges and, I believe, shoulder titles.

Going back to the original posting, I think as Paul suggested earlier, that this officer is either connected with an O.T.C. unit or possibly even a V.T.C. unit?

Robert