16 replies to this topic

[Beselare]

I am trying to pinpoint the exact site of Dead Man's Bottom near Bellewaarde Farm.  I have the trench map reference (I.12.a.b.) and there is a rough sketch in Nigel Cave's book, Sanctuary Wood & Hooge, but does anyone have a clearer map showing the precise location?

Bob

[towisuk]

Beselare, on 02 March 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

I am trying to pinpoint the exact site of Dead Man's Bottom near Bellewaarde Farm.  I have the trench map reference (I.12.a.b.) and there is a rough sketch in Nigel Cave's book, Sanctuary Wood & Hooge, but does anyone have a clearer map showing the precise location?

Bob

Hi Bob, I've had a look at all the trench maps available to me, and unless I missed it, I can't see "Dead mans bottom" marked on any of the maps....sorry I can't help.
regards
Tom

*Edited,............Have a look at this previous topic..........

http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=11677

[6th Shropshires]

Here is one.

[towisuk]

Is it me or do the markings on the map (indicated by the flag), look like someones rear end??? Is the name derived from the symbol on the map??? (from "Linesman")
regards
Tom

[Beselare]

Many thanks to everyone for your help.  I could see that wood on my trench maps, but there was no indication that it had a name.  It is now going to be easy to find being opposite the junction of the small road leading up to the N.37.  I wonder what was in the mind of the person who allocated the name to that wood, especially as it close to Wee Cottage?

Bob

[towisuk]

Beselare, on 03 March 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Many thanks to everyone for your help.  I could see that wood on my trench maps, but there was no indication that it had a name.  It is now going to be easy to find being opposite the junction of the small road leading up to the N.37.  I wonder what was in the mind of the person who allocated the name to that wood, especially as it close to Wee Cottage?

Bob

If you look at the trench map above Bob, there's no sign of that wood on the map, just the half moon symbols which resembles someone's buttocks...!!!
regards
Tom

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Tom

I would say the wood or small coppice was blow off the map, I would place your map at 1917 or later. Interesting two gun position side by side does look very much like buttocks what do the two next to Wee Cottage look like  

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Thinking about it if they gun positions, which I alway took the C shaped symbol to be, then Tom's map must be dated after British withdrew their line back in April 1918, as they facing towards British lines.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Bob

Quote

It is now going to be easy to find being opposite the junction of the small road leading up to the N.37.

Looking at Google earth the wood is nolonger there

Also been looking to find the earliest map with it named as Dead Man's Bottom, and the earliest I can find is dated June 1915, none of the May 1915 maps I have, give a name to the Wood/Coppice, I would be interested to hear from any of the maps nuts on the forum if they have it named on a dated earlier the June 1915, my interest in this wood lies with the 2nd K.S.L.I. who formed a flank here on 8th May 1915.

Annette

Annette

[CROONAERT]

6th Shropshires, on 03 March 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I would say the wood or small coppice was blow off the map,

Probably... It seems to appear on British trench-mapping until the mid-1917 re-survey of the area (named on maps covering the summer of 1915 (June,July, August, September - all printed from a French base) and existant but un-named afterwards and then not at all after mid 1917 or so... I don't know about pre-June 1915 as I don't have any officially printed (British) trenchmaps for that area before that month). Funnily enough, German trench-mapping of the same area seems to follow suite - Storchschnabel Waldchen appearing marked as a wood until mid-1917 and then just as a 'trace' from then on.

Dave

...June 1915...

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[CROONAERT]

...Aug 1915

...July 1915

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[towisuk]

Many thanks for the info regarding the wood appearing on trench maps Dave, I just thought it a coincidence to have some marks which resembles someone's behind over an area named as Dead mans bottom!
reagrds
Tom

[6th Shropshires]

Cheers for input Dave, I have just found a map which shows 80th Brigade positions on afternoon of 8th May 1915 and it as the Wood named. If anyone as it named on a earlier map would be interested to know.

Annette

[Aurel Sercu]

Just to say that on German trench maps the name for Dead Man's Bottom is Storchschnabelwäldchen (stork's bill copse).
Any resemblance between A and B is purely fictitious. :-)
Or ... wait a minute, maybe it's not the shape ? Isn't stork's bill (crane's bill) a sort of flower too ?

Aurel

[Beselare]

Aurel Sercu, on 04 March 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Just to say that on German trench maps the name for Dead Man's Bottom is Storchschnabelwäldchen (stork's bill copse).
Any resemblance between A and B is purely fictitious. :-)
Or ... wait a minute, maybe it's not the shape ? Isn't stork's bill (crane's bill) a sort of flower too ?

Aurel

Hi Aurel - stick with the shape.  I lived in the south-west of Germany for five years and the stork is very common in that region.  

Erodium Cicutarum (Common Stork's Bill) is found in the Mediterranean basin and in North America.   The Sticky Stork's Bill is found in England.  At the back of your mind, you were probably  thinking about the famous Stork's Bill Flower Fairy.  It will be interesting to see where this thread leads to now!  

Bob

[Aurel Sercu]

Beselare, on 04 March 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

  It will be interesting to see where this thread leads to now!  
Bob

Bob,

You asked for it !
What I was thinking of ? Well, for me a stork's bill is the thing from which a baby is hanging.  :-)
(Sorry, couldn't resist Bob's "provocation".)

But serious ... Has Dead Man's Bottom / Storchschnabelwäldchen the shape of a stork's bill ?

Aurel

[Beselare]

Hi Aurel

A stork's bill is a long, pointed object.  If you look at the map, and imagine that where the 'D' is in Dead is the bird's right eye, then the whole wood looks like the shape of a stork with the bill at the top.  That is some real imagination by a German cartographer!   No sign though of any baby hanging from it.

Bob