22 replies to this topic

[jtaus67]

Hi everyone,
I am trying to piece together family history and am at my great grandfather, Ernest Charles Hammond, born about 1884 in Camberwell UK. He served in the RN from 1900-1907, but afterwards was living and married in Timaru New Zealand in 1911. We have a single (unfortunately poor quality) picture that seems to have been touched up, so very difficult to make out details.
I am wondering if anyone can narrow down and confirm its a NZ uniform, and any other information that may help us. Our family always believed he was only in the navy however the picture may be some civilian or post-war uniform (the picture is about 1920-1922).

Thanks in advance, and I appreciate the information I've already found on this forum (wishing our pic was clearer for the collar and hat badges!!).

John

[odin432]

Hi John
It would be nice to have a photo to look at to start with, your pic might need adjusting in size
Dave

[jtaus67]

Seems it didnt allow me to update the pic - trying again!

 odin432, on 20 March 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Hi John
It would be nice to have a photo to look at to start with, your pic might need adjusting in size
Dave

Attached Files

•  ECHammond.jpg   82.56K   7 downloads

[khaki]

Hi John,

I am 99% sure that it is a NZ uniform, not quite sure of the cap badge, although collars appear to be artillery/engineers?
khaki

[jtaus67]

Thanks Khaki. The hat sure looks the part (even with the touch ups) and from what else i have seen it is very similar to some of the NZRB uniforms though the collar pins I have not seen anything similar in shape.
Ancestry records show an Ernest Charles Hammond on 2nd division reserve roll in 1917 at Wellington, but cant make much more from the records.

 khaki, on 20 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Hi John,

I am 99% sure that it is a NZ uniform, not quite sure of the cap badge, although collars appear to be artillery

khaki

[khaki]

Hi John,
I am leaning toward the cap badge being a NZ Engineers badge, that would approximate the shape rather than artillery. The NZRB badge was a rampant lion holding a pennant surmounting their motto "soyes ferme" The only variation to that was the reinforcement badge which mounted the NZRB badge over silver? ferns with a crown and a scroll base reinforcements. I don't believe it is a NZRB badge in any form as the collars are flaming bombs and the NZRB collars are the same as the cap badge. I cannot make out what ribbon he is wearing, can you tell from the original.

khaki

[jtaus67]

Thanks again, unfortunately the original is no better than the scan i made..interesting on the collars, I will do a little research as thats a great lead!

 khaki, on 20 March 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Hi John,
I am leaning toward the cap badge being a NZ Engineers badge, that would approximate the shape rather than artillery. The NZRB badge was a rampant lion holding a pennant surmounting their motto "soyes ferme" The only variation to that was the reinforcement badge which mounted the NZRB badge over silver? ferns with a crown and a scroll base reinforcements. I don't believe it is a NZRB badge in any form as the collars are flaming bombs and the NZRB collars are the same as the cap badge. I cannot make out what ribbon he is wearing, can you tell from the original.

khaki

[(nzef)]

Hi,

An Ernest Charles Hammond is listed in the 2nd Reserve of the N.Z.E.F. He is designated 'A' which means he was married (which fits in with your information) with no children, or had failed to provide adequate maintenance. As yet, I have not found records showing he enlisted. But I'll keep looking.

His occupation is listed as woollen mill hand and he was living in Tory St, Wellington.

He is listed in the 1914 & 1919 Timaru electoral roll as living in Barnard St, with his wife Mary.

There is record of a Charles Ernest dying in 1992. Transposing the name was a reasonably common occurrence. Does this match with your info?

I have also come accross some mentions in local papers

Wounded in 1917 ??

http://paperspast.na...e. c. hammond--

Camp notes - possibly lead

http://paperspast.na...E. C. Hammond--

Did he have a sister Alma?

http://muse.auckland...e_search=ernest

Lots of info still to go through. I've put this together in a few minutes, so you may wish to recheck the sources based on the links above. Hopefully something useful will come of it for you.

Cheers
Grant

[jtaus67]

Thanks Grant, yes much of this information is what is confusing. He had no sister Alma nor can I find a friend who may have been married to Alma (though not sure why he had her as next of kin when he was married to MAry in 1911 and remained such afterwards until 1950 when he passed away). He was in Timaru as you point out and also after the war, though two of his children were supposed to have been born in Wellington while my grandfather was born 1912 in Timaru.
I had thought the EC Hammond referenced was him but using the serial number it shows up on the Aukland museum archives as an Edgar Cyril Hammond..
I believe many of the WW1 records were lost in the 30's to fire, so we may not find any further. I spent this week trying t chase down on the flaming bomb collar badges - found the same Ernest Hammond above I believe was in the NZ Tunellers, its the same serial number as the 1917 register living with Alma.
Ah such fun! But thanks for the effort and help, I am always amazed at how people are so willing to help!

Cheers,
John

 (nzef), on 23 March 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Hi,

An Ernest Charles Hammond is listed in the 2nd Reserve of the N.Z.E.F. He is designated 'A' which means he was married (which fits in with your information) with no children, or had failed to provide adequate maintenance. As yet, I have not found records showing he enlisted. But I'll keep looking.

His occupation is listed as woollen mill hand and he was living in Tory St, Wellington.

He is listed in the 1914 & 1919 Timaru electoral roll as living in Barnard St, with his wife Mary.

There is record of a Charles Ernest dying in 1992. Transposing the name was a reasonably common occurrence. Does this match with your info?

I have also come accross some mentions in local papers

Wounded in 1917 ??

http://paperspast.na...+c%2e+hammond--

Camp notes - possibly lead

http://paperspast.na...+C%2e+Hammond--

Did he have a sister Alma?

http://muse.auckland...e_search=ernest

Lots of info still to go through. I've put this together in a few minutes, so you may wish to recheck the sources based on the links above. Hopefully something useful will come of it for you.

Cheers
Grant

[ATNOMIS]

 (nzef), on 23 March 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Hi,

An Ernest Charles Hammond is listed in the 2nd Reserve of the N.Z.E.F. He is designated 'A' which means he was married (which fits in with your information) with no children, or had failed to provide adequate maintenance. As yet, I have not found records showing he enlisted. But I'll keep looking.

His occupation is listed as woollen mill hand and he was living in Tory St, Wellington.

He is listed in the 1914 & 1919 Timaru electoral roll as living in Barnard St, with his wife Mary.

There is record of a Charles Ernest dying in 1992. Transposing the name was a reasonably common occurrence. Does this match with your info?

I have also come accross some mentions in local papers

Wounded in 1917 ??

http://paperspast.na...+c%2e+hammond--

Camp notes - possibly lead

http://paperspast.na...+C%2e+Hammond--

Did he have a sister Alma?

http://muse.auckland...e_search=ernest

Lots of info still to go through. I've put this together in a few minutes, so you may wish to recheck the sources based on the links above. Hopefully something useful will come of it for you.

Cheers
Grant

Grant

Great job. Just we in the UK had the info. Bloody WW2.

Regards

Simon

[Wendy Mac...]

John Hi ~

The war service records where lost in the UK in the 1930's, Ernest Charles Hammond New Zealand war service file is held at Archives New Zealand in Wellington and is safe and sound!
Would you like me to order it for you, I'm at the archives often. Ernest's file is not avaiable to be digitised by can be ordered up and viewed and photographed in the reading room.

Ernest service number is WW1 15253  http://www.archway.a...o?code=20548267



Ernest Charles Hammond married Mary Ann Hay in 1911

BDM search https://www.bdmhisto...s#SearchResults
I'm just doing a census look up now for Ernest and Mary, via another forum.

In that photo it looks like Ernest is wearing a ribbon bar, that would mean the photo was taken post WW1.



Wendy

[Wendy Mac...]

New Zealand Electoral rolls



Ernest Charles Hammond 1911 Timaru Canterbury  
Ernest Charles Hammond 1914 Timaru Canterbury  
Ernest Charles Hammond 1919 Timaru Canterbury  

Mary Hammond 1911 Timaru Canterbury  
Mary Hammond 1914 Timaru Canterbury  
Mary Hammond 1919 Timaru Canterbury

Edited by Wendy Mac..., 07 May 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Attached are some WW1 period photographs of New Zealand troops wearing their distinctive " Kiwi " hats.
From the photographs, we can see that some troops opted for the top of the hat to be pushed upwards to a point, similar to the Canadian Mounties style, whilst others put a crease in the top of their hat, and wore it similar to a civilian Trilby style, as in the original photograph posted by John.
All the New Zealand service hats had a coloured puggaree ( hat band ), the colours of which varied according to the service branch. For example, Engineers having a khaki/dark blue/khaki puggaree, and Artillery being dark blue/scarlet/ dark blue.
Coincidently, in two of the photographs the troops have flaming grenade collar badges, as both photographs show Artillery servicemen.

LF

Attached Files

•  NZ 1.jpg   68.83K   0 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2

Attached Files

•  NZ 2.jpg   42.13K   0 downloads
•  NZ 3.jpg   41.29K   0 downloads

[jtaus67]

Thanks for the info and sharing the photo's. Yes the lemon squeezer versus the inverted was a bit tricky!
I am going to take up Wendy's offer and see if we can get a view of his service record!

 Lancashire Fusilier, on 08 May 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

2

[Wendy Mac...]

Ok John I'll order up the file when I'm next at the archives.

I'm just going out now but will add some more information later tonight.

Wendy

[Herekawe]

Hi


Isn't the Flat Top version in the first photo the "Mounted Rifle Hat" which the NZ  Army is now ditching the Lemon Squeezer and standardising to this model. There was an article in Stuff on 3/4/2012 re this, the MR Hat predated the Lemon Squeezer? Or am I victim of some April Fool joke?

http://www.stuff.co....t-too-many-hats

James

[Joe Sweeney]

The Hat creased for and aft from what I understand pre-dates the Lemon squeezer and was commonly seen in photos off all troop types in 1914.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

When first raised in 1914 the slouch hats were worn with a fold longtitudinally, which had been a popular way for Antipodean mounted infantrymen to wear their hats since the time of the Boer War.

However, in Sep 1916 the following order was issued:

7th September 1916
The slouch hat will in future be worn by all ranks as follows: -
Brim horizontal – Crown peaked.
(NZEF Order No 135, 1916)

There are good images and information here:  http://militarianz.f...base-t1797.html

[khaki]

My understanding was that the "lemon squeezer' or Montana Peak was the traditional style for the NZ Wellington regiment, and that as stated all others were later (1916) altered to conform with this. I believe that the Mounted Rifle Regiment wore the earlier style with one side turned up.

khaki

[Krithia]

Can I ask that you source the images in posts #13 and #14 as being from the Schiffer "Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in World War 1". Looks like I have just done it, but maybe next time it will help readers :-)

[Martyn61]

Any ideas who the gentleman in the photo's are?

[FROGSMILE]

I think he is an artilleryman going from the collar badges,  It seems that in the early stages of recruitment and depoyment NZ troops were sent out in batches or 'contingents', with each contingent wearing its own makeshift cap badge, but with collar badges of the parent unit.  I enclose two similar images and you can see the (generally) round shape of the contingent badges and the grenade collars.  There is an excellent description of how this all happened at the following 2 page link: http://militarianz.f...base-t1837.html

Attached Files

•  images.jpg   5.76K   1 downloads
•  WW1 real photo New Zealand Artillery soldier.jpg   2.64K   1 downloads