23 replies to this topic

[corisande]

Can anyone help me with further info on this man in Russia, Major Richard John Andrews DSO MC, who according to his obit in the Times (which I understand was probably written by Crozier)volunteered for North Russia

..was captured by the Bolchevists owing to the mutiny of the Russian troops which he commanded. He saved the lives of his officers by pretending that he was a Labour leader in England, and remained in captivity in Moscow for 9 months, being the last to be repatriated in 1920.


I cannot find a reference to him in Jul 1919 mutiny by Slavo British Legion, but maybe I am looking in wrong place!

[Karenwh1]

I am also looking for information on Major Richard John Andrews, born 8 Dec 1876 died 16 Jan 1923.  On Ancestry.com I found a Freedom of the City Admission dated 8 Feb 1917.  It contains several pages, but it's not clear to me what they mean.  Is this the same person?

Karen
Vancouver, BC, Canada

corisande, on 26 March 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Can anyone help me with further info on this man in Russia, Major Richard John Andrews DSO MC, who according to his obit in the Times (which I understand was probably written by Crozier)volunteered for North Russia

..was captured by the Bolchevists owing to the mutiny of the Russian troops which he commanded. He saved the lives of his officers by pretending that he was a Labour leader in England, and remained in captivity in Moscow for 9 months, being the last to be repatriated in 1920.


I cannot find a reference to him in Jul 1919 mutiny by Slavo British Legion, but maybe I am looking in wrong place!

[corisande]

Karen

I have my notes on him if you click this link

I am really trying to fill in gaps in what I know. It is always dubious taking obits as true unless you can substantiate the facts.

Can you add anything to that stuff of mine.

I would doubt that the 1917 City of London thing was him, but can you put up the Ancestry link here and I will take a look

[Karenwh1]

Hi there:

It looks as though you've combined the information from two Richard John Andrews into one.

My Richard John Andrews was born 8 Dec 1876 at 3 Truman's Place, Stoke Newington.  Birth registered in Hackney, Middlesex.  Parents Robert & Sarah Andrews.  The Baptism on 8 Apr 1877 confirms this.

You have attached the 1881 & 1891 Census showing Richard Andrews' parents are Harry & Catherine.  I have my Richard in the 1891 Census, 14 yrs old, living with his parents Robert & Sarah and 4 siblings in Hackney, Middlesex.

My Richard married Emmie Heathfield Blackmore abt 1877 - 1901 in 1899.  Richard's second wife was Emmie's sister, Edith Heathfield Blackmore 1880 - 1933.  Emmie & Edith's parents were Joshua & Ellen Blackmore.  I descend from Joshua's brother, Silas Blackmore.

The 1917 Freedom of the City I was referring to confirms I have attached it to the correct Richard John Andrews.  It lists his date of birth - 8 Dec 1876, and where he was born - 3 Truman's Place, Stoke Newington.

I hope this link will take you the Freedom of the City Admission Papers, if not, let me know and I could email it directly to you:

http://search.ancest...dpid&pid=763839

The WWI Service Record card you have attached gives us another clue that it belongs to "my" Richard.  On the right hand side, under Correspondence, it says:  Sister, E. Blackmore applies for her __?___ brothers medals.  Richard's sister, Emily, married Ernest Blackmore.  Ernest Blackmore is the brother of Richard's wives - Emmie & Edith.  And below that:  Miss. E. M. Ricketts, 6 Station Road, Leyton - she's the same person that Richard John Andrews mentioned in his will.

Richard John Andrews is buried at Abney Park Cemetery on Jan 20, 1923, with his first wife Emmie and her parents, Joshua & Ellen Blackmore.  Richard's second wife Edith was also buried there in 1933.  Edith had remarried and her last name was Griffiths.

It's possible the only two incorrect documents you have attached are the 1881 & 1891 Census, and maybe we'll be down to ONE Richard John Andrews.

The additional information you have is fascinating!  Almost unbelievable.  Are you related to him?

Karen

corisande, on 03 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Karen

I have my notes on him if you click this link

I am really trying to fill in gaps in what I know. It is always dubious taking obits as true unless you can substantiate the facts.

Can you add anything to that stuff of mine.

I would doubt that the 1917 City of London thing was him, but can you put up the Ancestry link here and I will take a look

[Karenwh1]

Also:

I just noticed the last couple of sentences of the article about Richard John Andrews' death :

"Colonel Andrews was also a Freeman of the City of London.  That honour was awarded him for his services in the war, together with a sword , etc...."


I looked up what "Freedom of the City" means:

One of the oldest surviving traditional ceremonies still in existence today is the granting of the Freedom of the City of London. It is believed that the first Freedom was presented in 1237.

The medieval term 'freeman' meant someone who was not the property of a feudal lord, but enjoyed privileges such as the right to earn money and own land. Town dwellers who were protected by the charter of their town or city were often free - hence the term 'freedom of the City'.

Looks like we have the same Richard John Andrews, but you need to update the 1881 & 1891 Census to show his parents were Robert & Sarah Andrews.

[corisande]

Karen

Thanks for all that, I have updated the information, and I think that we could now agree on what I have just put up, but feel free to give me corrections.

I guess that you cannot tell me any more bout his service in ADRIC, but can you fill in any more on the accident that caused his death, and what that business was that he was running after leaving Ireland

I never could crack what was going on in Chile, or indeed the Boer War, he seems to have upped stumps and left his wife (of the time) behind

The 1881 census has his family, but not him - I suspect that the census enumerator never got the full info on the family - it is really odd seeing "anything" and "don't know" against the father.!

Not forgetting where I came in with original post - information on him being a prisoner of the Russians in 1919/1920

[IPT]

Haven't found anything on Russia yet, but found this report of his death;


Cork Examiner - January 27th 1923

Colonel Richard John Andrews of LyndhurstRoad. Leyton. was stated at the resumed inquest at St. Patterns have beencaused his being struck by a fragment 'metal travelling a mile a minute.Colonel Andrews, who rose command battalion of theEast Lancashire Regiment won the D.S.O. and other decorations. He carriedbusiness as a motor engineer in Hampstead Road, and last week was found by anext-door neighbour lying dead beside an electric motor, which was stillrunning, and clasping a chisel in his hand. Mr. Walter Schroder heardfurther evidence. Thomas Roberts an employee at the works, stated that therewas a flaw in the sharpening wheel of the machine. The flange was not on, andit was decidedly unsafe to work the wheel without it. His employer had not muchpractical knowledge of machinery. Mr. Macklin, Engineering Inspector to theHome Officer said that he had come to the conclusion that the accident wascaused by improper of the wheel



Also found a picture (post #9);

http://irishgenealog...-Body-Snatchers

[corisande]

IPT

Thanks for those bits.

I had failed to get the inquest report anywhere, Shows how you have to be careful of what Crozier wrote, he claimed to have been beside Andrews when Andrews died. As you know this research business is a question of cross-checking and getting back to original records

I failed to get more on "Ex-Officers Automobile Service", his business in London. Given the problems of employment of ex-officers at that time, one wonders how successful it was. As the chap says at the inquest, Andrews was not a mechanic, and one would not have thought that many ex-officers were

The British POWs in Russia (a bit like in Turkey) seems to be a bit of a grey area historically and difficult to get references on.

[corisande]

..and I made a breakthrough on British officers who were  Russian POWs



And two bits of background

  

Which should help anyone else trying to trace these men, plus 2 TNA references

FO 181/974/6 Prisoners of war, Russia
FO 608/203/2 report by a British POW Capt J B Wilson

Capt J B Wilson is not on that list of repatriated officers, but Capt Roupell (in the Times article) is on the list.

Col Andrews was repatriated in April 1920

[charlesmessenger]

Andrews wrote a brief account of his capture and captivity and this appears in his personal file at Kew (WO 339/59109. In essence,he was attached to the 5th North Russian Rifles (part of the Onega River Column). Its men mutinied on 20 July 1919 and arrested all their own officers plus the British ones attached.

As for Ireland, Andrews proved himself a hopeless administrator, failing to account for much expenditure. TNA HO 351/122 and HO 45/20096 give more detail.

In the light of this, it is difficult to believe that he and Crozier (also hopeless with money) could have had much success with their business venture.

Charles M

[corisande]

Charles

Thanks for that - I knew you would know  

I have updated my page on him accordingly

[corisande]

I have been to TNA now and updated his info from his file there -click for current page

In my mind there is some doubt as to who his master was in Ireland. His resignation does not seem (from the date) to be connected to Crozier's. And the file entries before and after his spell in ADRIC are a bit ambiguous

I still have not been able to fill in much of his time in Boer War or Chile.

A fascinating man!

[jill blackmore]

Hello,

I have been trying to register for the War Forum ever since I read this report on Lt Col R J Andrews.  I am his  great niece and have quite a lot of information on him.  However I shall try and post this before continuing further.

Sincerely,  Jill Blackmore

[corisande]

Welcome to the forum Jill, anything you can give us would be very welcome

I see his next of kin was given as his sister Mrs Blackmore, so I see how you are related.

You don't have a photo of him do you?

[jill blackmore]

Dear Corisande and karenhw

I don't quite know where to begin, so firstly let me tell you what artifracts I have at home and what ones I know about but no longer have.
Several
1)  Photographs:   a) small snaps 2.5" x 1.75"   These have a matt finish and don't scan too well, also I have a new printer which is not yet properly installed.  Subject matter:  Recruit training English barracks includiing one of RJA in kilt etc on his motor bike with my 10 year old father looking on.   In the trenches with his men.  Standing in no man's land.   and  on a sleigh in Russia with companions.   Standing in a garden in formal officers undform (no hat). A group phote standing beside his sister, Emily (sitting) with her daughter Constance seated on the ground.  Constance was born in 1913.  His face looks strained in picture so it will be well into WW1.

[corisande]

Jill

I would love to see any or all of those photos, if you could either post them here, or I will PM you my email

[jill blackmore]

Dear Corisande and Karen,

Apologies for the delay but a cateract op, changing my printer and mislaying the photos to say nothing of Christmas were the reasons.  The previous post ended abruptly. I had gone typing gaily on not noticing that nothing was appearing on the screen - God knows where it wnet - so gave up.  Yesterday, I composed a long post only to loose that too, before posting it.  Very frustrating.  So the following will be mainly a repeat of what I typed yesterday.

I will start with the artifracts that I have and that we used to have.
Book - Views of South Africa (not inscribed) which he brought back as a souvenir.  I have this.

WWI Medals - These are not in my possession.

Sword of Honour from the City of London. - not in my possession.

2 Pen and Ink drawings done by a fellow prisoner in Moscow - Not in my possession.  

Just a note on family history:  My father, Stanley Heathfield Blackmore was 10 in 1914 and "Uncle Dick" was his hero and so these posessions came to him from his mother, Emily, Richard's sister.  In 1948 My father decided we should emigrate to South Africa.  These artifracts came with us and I well remember the Sword of Honour, a beautifully engraved piece.  I also remember the pen and ink drawings.  As I was an only child and hadn't married he decided to sell these three items to a S African dealer sometime in the
1970's. They are probably still in existance and could be traced through the internet.

1 Russian revolutionary poster - which I have.

1 Writing case (calf skin) with the initials R J A and which I still use.

1 Cigar Box presented to him by some of his fellow prisoners in Russia, for  saving their lives.  It was about 10" x 8" of a plinth design (wider at the base) and decorated and engraved.  I brought this back to England with me in 1987 and sold it that year.  It may have been melted down as the significence of these items was not known at the time, pre-internet days.

I also have a book "Chasing the Wind" by Maj Gen K van der Spuy, a S African who was serving with the RAF and served on the North Russia Expedition. He too was imprisoned and writes a full and interesting account of it, mentioning Andrews twice.  The book is published by Books of Africa and is available on South African websites. van der Spuy went on to lead the S African Air Force, and retired to quite near where my parents were living.  It is well worth acquiring and his name whould be mentioned on the Expedition's websites.

I think I shall end here and post it before it disappears on me!
          Regards, Jill

[corisande]

Jill

Thanks for the update. I have ordered a copy of that book, it looks an interesting read with the North Russia stuff.

[Karenwh1]

Hi Jill,

THANK YOU very much for the update.  As I mentioned in my messages back in April 2012, I am related to Richard John Andrews in a round-about way.  Richard married two of my 1st cousins, 3X removed.   Emmie Heathfield Blackmore (abt 1877 - 1901) & Edith Heathfield Blackmore (1880 - 1933) were sisters, and they were the daughters of Joshua Caleb Blackmore.  Joshua was the brother of my Great-Great Grandfather, Silas Blackmore 1838 - 1899.  My mother's maiden name was Blackmore.  After her parents divorced, her mother & new husband immigrated to Canada with my mother in 1948.

Your father, Stanley Heathfield Blackmore, shows up on my family tree at Ancestry as my 2nd cousin, 2X removed.  I've calculated that you are my 3rd cousin, 1X removed.  I know that Stanley's father, Ernest Blackmore, married Richard John Andrews sister, Emily Eliza Andrews.

I am assuming that Richard John Andrews & his second wife, Edith Heathfield Blackmore were divorced or separated at some point before his death?  I have found Edith buried at Abney Park Cemetery, London with her parents & several relatives.  Her burial record at Abney Park notes her name was "Edith GRIFFITHS alias Andrews ".  Several months ago I diligently tried to figure out why Richard left everything in his will to an Edith M Ricketts.  Today I decided to do a little more digging around and I think I've found her - born in Berwick-Upon-Tweed in 1880, around June.  Parents James (born abt 1839) & Louisa (born abt 1852).  And then I found your posts here.

Great to meet another relative!  You're only the 3rd one I've managed to find in 12 years of family tree searches.

Karen
Vancouver Island, BC

[Karenwh1]

Jill, you may know this already:  
Robert John Andrews is also buried at Abney Park Cemetery in Section N05, which is the same section that both of his wives - Emmie & Edith are buried with their parents - Joshua & Ellen Blackmore.  

I have photographs of Joshua & Ellen's headstone.  But, I don't understand why Richard John Andrews would have been buried with his wives & their family, especially since it looks as though he wasn't married to Edith (wife #2) when he died, and at some point Edith remarried someone with the last name of Griffiths.

My Gr-Gr-Grandfather, Silas Blackmore, is also buried at Abney Park, but he appears to have been buried in a paupers grave, since there is no headstone for him.  Silas' wife, Mary (Ackland) is either buried with her family or is just noted on their headstone, at St Brannock's Church Cemetery, Braunton, Devon.

Karen

[jill blackmore]

Hello,  Here I am again  after making a post two weeks ago which disappeared as I was not logged in!  Too disheartened to start from scratch all over again.

Karen, re your comments on his marriages:  I do not think he was married twice.  Firstly, the sister is too closely related.  According to the Book of Common Prayer's  Table of Kindred and Affinity marriage to your wife's sister (No 17) is not permitted.  If so it would have to be a civil ceremony - had these begun then?  I do not know.
Therefore she would not go with him to Chile and therefore there would be no divorce.  The grounds for divorce were very narrow in those days, and expensive and so quite often people did not bother.  They would separate (sometimes judicially) then form another liaison and  'live in sin'.  They would move away from where they were known and she would take his name (sometimes by deed poll).  But as he listed himself as married when he joined up, who was it and when?

Previously, I mentioned some of the artifracts (should have been artefacts) that I had in connection with RJA.  I also have Crozier's book "Impressions & Recollections".   What an odd type he was.   There was only 2 years and 1 month's difference in age between them.  They seem to have become friends - or why go into business together?   I wonder if RJA knew about Crozier's cheque bouncing activities.  I have wondered if they first came across each other in South Africa during the Boer War.

Re Chile:  I had known that he had been in South America but not which country.  I had also known that he had been involved in fighting there, though for whom and for what I had no idea - some vague idea about a revolution.  I think Chile always was an unstable country.

I was also interested to see from the Forum that he had attended the City of London School as my father also attended it.  I had looked on their website but couldn't see anything about old boys.  It would be interesting to know what his school record was and how long he attended.  Corisande can you help on this.  He would turn 12 in 1882 so between then and 1890 must have been when he attended.  It was this quality education that made him see a world beyond following in his father's footsteps, which he did initially.  I imagine he was restless and the Boer War came at just the right time for him.  It was the time of Empire and adventure and jobs abroad abounding for single young men.  One has only to read the stories of railway building in Africa (which I know more about) to realise these were a young man's dream, school boy literature was full of them and wives often had no place (unless they went farming).  If it hadn't been for the First World War he might never had left.
Having myself lived in Zimbabwe (in the 1960's) and seen how the tobacco farmers, starting from bare bush, made prosperous farms, learnt an African language, gave emergency medical treatment following accidents, became mechanics, acted as local magistrates, learnt how to bake bricks, build homes and together with their wives become extremely self reliant.  The nearest garage could be 50 miles away and anyway the roads got washed away in the rainy season and he and the other farmers would get it repaired.  Most these farmers had been to public schools but in the complete absence of a skilled working class taught themselves many skills and I think my Uncle was made in this mould.

I think this was the sort of man he was when he returned to England  at the beginning of 1915, aged 39.  Mature and self reliant and used to using his own initiative.  He thus became acting sergeant in double quick time and within 6 months of being in France sent back to the UK for officer training. etc etc.

I am wondering the best way to get the photos to you both.  I am not yet familiar with my new printer.

Am I allowed to give you my email address?  This would be the best way for me to get in touch with Karen about the Blackmore family which I would be keen to know more about, but is irrelevent to this forum on RJA.  Regards, Jill

[Karenwh1]

Hi Jill,
Thank you for the extra details.

With regards to the marriages of Richard John Andrews to two Blackmore sisters:
I have found the marriage records for both marriages at Ancestry.  Richard married Emmie (also known as Emily) Heathfield Blackmore in the 3rd quarter of 1899, in West Ham, Essex.  Emmie died in 1901, and Richard was a Widower in the 1901 Census, living with his sister, Emily & her husband Ernest Blackmore.  Richard married Emmie/Emily's sister,  Edith Heathfield Blackmore, in the 2nd quarter of 1902, in Hackney, London.  (Emmie & Edith Blackmore were Ernest Blackmore's sisters.)  Yes, I'm familiar with the law where they were not allowed to marry the sister of their deceased wife, so I'm not sure how this was able to happen.

Lots of interesting bits of information with regards to Richard John Andrews life.

You can reach me by email at:  mrshobbie@gmail.com.  I'd love to discuss our Blackmore connection further!

Regards,
Karen

[corisande]

Karen is quite correct in the various Blackmore sibblings marriages, and has help me to understand them

Richard Andrews married first one Blackmore sister, then on her death the other. In addition Andrews's sister married the Blackmore girl's brother.

Andrews appears to have separated from his 2nd wife, as firstly he went off to Chile for 15 years without her, and secondly the War Office correspondence refers to a widow's whose whereabouts were unknown and that Andrews's sister was his next of kin (he had stated this on 1915 enlistment)

As is known his widow died a Griffiths, but I cannot find a marriage, even though she could have married after Andrews's death

His death still remains cloudy to me, with very little available in sources, I have quoted those I could find

His time in Chile (a large portion of his life) is sketchy too, as records do not appear to exist.

My current notes on Andrews are here - click

[jill blackmore]

Hello,

Sorry to have been so absent for so long.  Corisande, have you received your copy of Inherit the Wind yet?  I have been reading up on the Irish War of Independence and found out quite a lot on a website on the Auxiliaries including some very good photographs of RJA.  The website is The Auxiliary Division RIC Forum: G Company "The Body Snatchers".   I have also just received an email from a Mike Taylor who is looking into RJA's military record in more detail.  And I also see that a book is being written on Crozier.   So  tho' this does not take anything further I thought I would just log in to connect up again.  Ah, but I have just had a thought.  I have been wondering about RJA's time in Chile.  He went in 1902 and returned at the end of 1914.  Is it not possible that during that period he took some leave and came back to the UK for a long break.  Certainly the Colonial Office gave their staff home leave every five years or so, maybe RJA was granted the equivilant.  Would the shipping lists answer this question.  Just a thought ob my part.       All for now,   Jill