18 replies to this topic

[polarbear]

Greetsing all.
My recreated unit of 18DLI - The Durham Pals - are looking at the issue of helmets to 18DLi just before the Somme offensive. We know pretty much that the Battalion where issued just before 1st July , when two days before the work of "sand bagging" the helmets was described some accounts by the men.

What we are not sure of for 100% is what style /shape of helmet it would be for issue of May/June 1916 - 2nd Pattern with edging strip - forgive my lack of technical terminology here, and the colour of said helmet (apple green - sand/ coked finish??)

Forgive me if this is somewhere else of the forum

Any help greatly appriciated before we invest in a large amount of money...

Kind Regards
Gary

[GRANVILLE]

Gary,

I'm not putting myself forward as an expert in this field but in the absence of any other response to your query; I would venture to suggest that you will not be able to tie down the pattern of helmets issued at this time for a number of reasons. I suspect the chief reasons will be because the issue of helmets was still very much on going at that time and the men would have been issued with whatever was to hand rather than a neat one-off issue of any one particular pattern. If this supposition is correct then the men could have received a number of slightly different helmets i.e. raw-edged, rimmed, Apple Green, or some other shade (I suspect the anti reflective textured versions will have come a little later). So long as your group make use of genuine Brodies, then I don't think it will matter one way or the other as they will all be perfectly acceptable.

Dave Upton

[polarbear]

Hello Dave,
Most kind of you to post opinions thanks. We strive to exhausted every source we can view before we make any judgement on kit - sometimes you can look to hard!
Your suspicion is quite correct I suspect,but in terms of use today in interpretation context, there are not enough originals shells for what we need for the numbers we have.

We have several originals shells that belong to some members within the Durahm Pals, but to be properly uniformed in terms of supply, we are going for re-pro helmets  ( and not the re vamped WW2 ones!!) I only wished we did have enough original shells in a sutable conditon!

I agree with you from what I can gain that the "issue" of such item were in reality, very different from the what is on the book.

We know 18 DLI where issued helmets very near to the 1st July '16 and we think we know roughly where as well. We have , as I have said ,accounts of the chaps putting sand bag coverings on them just before, but most and rightly so, would not give a stuff about what colour they were, or if they had an edge on or not!  

Its all interesting stuff...

Best wishes
Gary

[Wardog]

Gary, have you found someone making repro Brodie helmets who makes repro shells? I may be misunderstanding you, as the repro Brodies I know of use WW2 or Belgian shells. Regards, Paul.

[Wainfleet]

Hi Gary

It's virtually certain that the men would have received rimless steel helmets, and almost equally likely that they would have been the first pattern helmet with first pattern liner and chinstrap. These were first issued in apple-green or duck-egg blue colour, but may well have been painted in a dull khaki at unit level; however if 18 DLI had only just received them they probably didn't have time to repaint them. Here is a first pattern helmet in the original apple-green paintwork, inside and out:





Note the tongued oilcloth liner riveted directly to the helmet, 2-piece chinstrap and narrow retaining lugs for the chinstrap anchors.

[Wainfleet]

Here is another first pattern helmet, painted khaki and with a brazed-on Buffs badge:





Hope this helps. Regards, W.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Two very nice examples Wainfleet, I especially like the East Kent Regiment one as an old family friend fought with the Buffs, and was shot in the head by a sniper, just outside Albert(luckily he survived). Regards Sean

[polarbear]

Wainfleet,
Thanks so much Chum for posting the images, most interesting indeed - love the latter "Buffs" one!
You say its is most probable the the rim less type was still being issued at the time of the Somme?  As no expert in the micro detail of these matters, I do however seem to recall that the 2nd Patt with rim was issued in March 1916 onwards...? I'm always willing to be prov on wrong things , so is it recorded anywhere that new army units where getting the 1st patt just before the Somme?

I'm not tryng to be too much of an anorak on this   and bottom line in context to reconstrution we will have to go on the available weight of evidence as to what was likely to have been issued to 18 DLI.

The colour question is fascinating I must say, but hopefully will be best place to reproduce this as best we can.

In answer to Wardog and the actual sources of helmets, then yes mate, we do have a source of repro WW1 British Brodie helmets in either pattern/in all of the colours and all of the finishes - but not here in the UK.

We did not want to go with re modled WW2 one's if it could be helped, as they did not have that right profile if you know what I mean. If you want more info please PM me.

As to the covers - there's another conversation!  Sand bags, size and pattern of how one covers ...  in half or made in quarters!

The quest continues...

Kind Regards

Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 - 1918.

[Wainfleet]

Hi Gary

I am a bit hazy about when the different patterns were introduced, but I think you are right that the rimmed edge was introduced some time in 1916, hence the word "probable". However large stocks of the first pattern had already been made by then, and Army practice has always been to use up old stock first.

Knowing which pattern was worn during the Somme battle is a matter of interest (well it is to me, and evidently to you as well!), and having examined many photos, I've never seen a dateable one clearly showing the second patt. chinstrap, ie one-piece with sliding buckle, before September 1916. I tend to think - and this is purely an opinion - that the 1st patt was in use by almost everyone until about September 1916, then the second model, ie raw edge with 2nd patt liner, started to make an appearance, with the rimmed edge patt coming into more general use about the turn of 1916-1917. Clearly photographic evidence is only a sample, but there's no obvious reason why it should be skewed. Issue will have lagged behind in some units, and undoubtedly some frontline soldiers were still wearing the raw edge pattern (with 2nd patt liner) in 1918.

As for covers, one-piece made from sandbags seems the most likely to me if they had to make them in a hurry. Those and four-piece ones can be seen in photos. Take your pick.

All best,

W.

[trenchtrotter]

And of course the water is muddied with salvaged and re conditioned helmets. I have to what is to all intents and purposes an early shell (signs of apple green paint to inside) but fitted with later liner, larger chin strap bales but old style simpole buckle chin strap. No rim but paint evidence one was fitted. This is badged to KOYLI and has very faint evidence of a yellow hackle battalion / unit mark (hardly visible now).

My other war office pattern (1st pattern) has much the same finish as Wainfleets non badged example and is named to a officer in RAMC att 36th Ulsters and with a 1916 date. These details on inner flap of one of the six tongues.

Regards

TT

[GRANVILLE]

If you decide to go for an Apple Green shade take a look on this IWM site. Scroll down and you'll see a self portrait by Sir William Orpen, done in 1917 (I believe) in which he poses in a shiney new Brodie of the said colour. He was a great artist so I feel confident in putting the painting forward as an authentic representation of how the shade would have appeared when new.

Dave

http://www.iwm.org.u...ndscape"&query=

[polarbear]

GRANVILLE, on 03 April 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

If you decide to go for an Apple Green shade take a look on this IWM site. Scroll down and you'll see a self portrait by Sir William Orpen, done in 1917 (I believe) in which he poses in a shiney new Brodie of the said colour. He was a great artist so I feel confident in putting the painting forward as an authentic representation of how the shade would have appeared when new.

Dave

http://www.iwm.org.u.....scape"&query=

Dave, thanks for the link re helmet cover.  Its a case of one man's apple green is another man's duck egg blue!!

Anyway lots to be going on with. I'll post up when I've found more.

Kind Regards
Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 ~1918

[a6skin9]

With regards to repro brodie helmets here is a link to Prairie Flower Leather Company in the U.S.  These are new made, in the U.S. steel helmets and not Mk. II helmets.
http://pflco.com/helmets.html

[polarbear]

a6skin9, on 04 April 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

With regards to repro brodie helmets here is a link to Prairie Flower Leather Company in the U.S.  These are new made, in the U.S. steel helmets and not Mk. II helmets.
http://pflco.com/helmets.html

Indeed they are and for the price your getting a very good match to a Brodie; a reasonable compromise in terms of modern re-construction in our view.

Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 ~ 1918

[GRANVILLE]

polarbear, on 03 April 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Dave, thanks for the link re helmet cover.  Its a case of one man's apple green is another man's duck egg blue!!

Anyway lots to be going on with. I'll post up when I've found more.

Kind Regards
Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 ~1918

Gary,
I can't say I've ever read before that brodies were produced in a Duck Egg Blue shade, but looking at the example supplied by Wainfleet I can see how this opinion is formed. I suspect the final shade (especially in the early days) will have had a great deal to do with the mixing of the paint. I very much wish I could make reference to where I've read this in the past, but I understand that at the outbreak of the war, several railway companies made considerable quantities of paint available to the War Dept, undoubtedly thinking they were not likely to be using it to paint their locos for a while, and the early shade(s) as used on brodies (I've always been under the impression it was known as Apple Green) was arrived at as a result. Slightly more blue than green and I guess you got Duck Egg Blue? Hope this helps.

Dave

[polarbear]

GRANVILLE, on 04 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Gary,
I can't say I've ever read before that brodies were produced in a Duck Egg Blue shade, but looking at the example supplied by Wainfleet I can see how this opinion is formed. I suspect the final shade (especially in the early days) will have had a great deal to do with the mixing of the paint. I very much wish I could make reference to where I've read this in the past, but I understand that at the outbreak of the war, several railway companies made considerable quantities of paint available to the War Dept, undoubtedly thinking they were not likely to be using it to paint their locos for a while, and the early shade(s) as used on brodies (I've always been under the impression it was known as Apple Green) was arrived at as a result. Slightly more blue than green and I guess you got Duck Egg Blue? Hope this helps.

Dave

Thanks Dave yes is interesting. Its a vast leaning curve I have to say   and I agree with you the duck egg blue is rather new to me too. With standing this I'll stick my neck out and and say the early issue had a variety of shades painted in a "green/blue" colour - one man's apple green is another man's duck egg blue!

The light again plays tricks on colour, so looking at remaining paint on originals gives slight variations each time.  The sheer vast effort of the war and the new armies and their equipping must have been an utter logistical night mere, and as we have seen differing types in 18DLI P14 sets and service caps in photographic evidence, its not unreasonable to assume there would be some varioation in paint shades on the first issues of helmets, never mind what was done at battalion level!

Thanks again for all your help - any more new info we find I'll share on the forum.

Kind Regards

Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 ~1918

[Wardog]

I see pflco still list original refurbished helmets. I noticed on eBay a few years back that they were buying shells, so asked if they had any brodie buckles I could buy, and they sold me some. Price of a helmet shell has shot up though from what it was 5 years ago. Regards, Paul.

[polarbear]

Wardog, on 05 April 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

I see pflco still list original refurbished helmets. I noticed on eBay a few years back that they were buying shells, so asked if they had any brodie buckles I could buy, and they sold me some. Price of a helmet shell has shot up though from what it was 5 years ago. Regards, Paul.

Sadly that's a correct observation Paul, hence why in terms of re-construction for LH use, having "new" repro brodie's  available is the way forward when you need them in numbers as we will.

Still seeing Apple Green in my sleep

Gary

The Durham Pals 1914 ~1918

[Wainfleet]

Just to clarify what I meant - apple green and duck-egg blue are two distinct colours that you wouldn't confuse if you saw them. 1st pattern helmets were painted in both these colours. The blue might seem an odd choice, but seeing is believing and helmets do exist in this colour. It is a lot rarer than the green and I don't have one or a picture of one of these, but hopefully somebody else will post a photo so you can see the difference.