86 replies to this topic

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 30 March 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

The Mark IV Female that was at the Aberdeen Proving Ground is now definitely known to be a tank built by the Coventry Ordnance Works in Glasgow.  It was one of a batch of Mark IVs exported to the USA at the war's end.  As Centurion says, it is not the touring tank.  My research into Mark IVs suggests that a cab roof was fitted to a very limited number of Females made by Metropolitan, serial numbers 6001 - 6020, and maybe not even all of these.  As such Britannia was quite an usual tank so it's a shame it's not survived.

Thanks for posting the photos - some of these are new to me.

Gwyn

The Mk IV supply tanks had a cab roof hatch as it was impossible to exit the tank in an emergency through to other doors when it was loaded with stores. I have found a number of photos of female Mk IVs with the roof hatch and most are, as I said, equipped to tow supply sledges. Those that are not are the tank at the Lord Mayors Show in Nov 1917 and Britannia. The Lord Mayors tank is said to have been a supply tank so perhaps it once had the towing gear fitted. An early rear view photo of Britannia reveals what look likes the remains of some form of tow bar so as I said earlier its a fair bet that she was once a supply tank too.

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 30 March 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Centurion - do you know what the box visible behind the cab in the two photos in post #5 is, please?  Does this box appear in other photos of the tank in other locations?  

Gwyn

It appears to be temporary and only appears in photos of the tank when it first arrived in Boston. It is not visible in earlier photos nor later ones. Indeed it has vanished in later shots whilst the tank is still in Boston. At various times the tank carried all sorts of temporary advertising hoardings, placards and the like as well a various boxes (some of which may even be the crews luggage)

[The 26TH Yankee]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 30 March 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Apparently the Aussies know exactly what happened to Britannia !!

I thought it would have been much heavier than that!


Seriously, the thought that it may have ended up at a scrap yard is very disturbing.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The 26TH Yankee, on 31 March 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

Seriously, the thought that it may have ended up at a scrap yard is very disturbing.

Sadly, it seems many WW1 tanks were broken up for scrap, here is a photograph showing a man with a sledge hammer and metal cutting equipment, it all looks very ominous!
LF

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•  WW1 tank being broken up.jpg   26.79K   1 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 31 March 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Sadly, it seems many WW1 tanks were broken up for scrap, here is a photograph showing a man with a sledge hammer and metal cutting equipment, it all looks very ominous!
LF

All WW1 tanks bar a very small handful were broken up for scrap. Hundreds went to the breakers. The one in the photo is Luton's presentation tank. Normally they were cut up with oxy acetylene torches. A great number had gone before WW2 and the rest perished in scrap drives in 1940 and 41. The scrap was almost worthless and may not have payed for the cost of cutting up. One worker was killed because fuel had been left in the fuel tank which exploded. Live ammuntition was found in a surprising number of tanks.

[centurion]

bob lembke, on 30 March 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Centurion;

I have connections that might well have access to Aberdeen personnel, if you have questions for them that are important to you.

Is the question of the Cornell University tank important? As above, I might have connections. (I spent 10 years up there.)

The IWM tank is a Mk V, I am 99% certain.

Daniel; Is the north-south street passing to the west of the Flatiron Building 5th Avenue? The one on the west (left) side certainly is not. It is diagonal, perhaps Broadway. (Do you know why Broadway runs at a diagonal across Manhatten?) 23rd Street is that one running east-west / right-left at the base of the Flatiron Building. I know that you know all this, it was for general info. (I had thought that 5th Avenue is a block or two to the right/west.)

Bob Lembke

Thanks for the offer Bob

I probably have all there is to know about the Cornell tank from articles and photos published at the time.


Now that Gwyn has confirmed my supposition that the tank at Aberdeen is one of the Mk IVs sent out in late 1918 I don't really have anything to ask Aberdeen (who I note still seem to think it's Britannia). Just rather peeved that when I wrote to them on the subject some time ago they didn't bother to reply.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Britannia displaying her might by car crushing during a visit to Chicago, Illinois, USA.
LF

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•  Britannia car crushing Chicago.jpg   65.27K   0 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 31 March 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Britannia displaying her might by car crushing during a visit to Chicago, Illinois, USA.
LF

One of a series - you've got the photo reversed.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another car crushing display by Britannia in Duluth, Minnesota, USA.

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•  Britannia Duluth Minnesota.jpg   56.24K   0 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 31 March 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Another car crushing display by Britannia in Duluth, Minnesota, USA.

This was a standard part of the display - the tank crushed well over 25 cars  as well as smashing through  a number wooden buildings, a box car and knocking down numerous trees and part of MIT. The first car crushed was in Toronto in Nov 1917 - its on film*. Tanks still crush cars at displays today (including Mr Bean's!) but Britannia was probably the first to do this. Its crushing  activities in New York were severely curtailed by the New York Fire Department who also stopped it firing blank Lewis gun rounds during demos (Health and Safety gone mad   ). The NYPD on the other hand were very cooperative (probably would have been happy with it firing live rounds!)


* Pathe had a habit of recycling films so some copies were captioned as "tank crushing a car in London" however there are also still photos of the event and the Toronto road can be identified by comparison with more modern views (it hasn't changed much). Captain Haig and Sergeant Burnside are clearly identifiable in the film.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

centurion, on 31 March 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

The NYPD on the other hand were very cooperative (probably would have been happy with it firing live rounds!)

This photograph shows Britannia on the streets of New York during her visit to the city, a New York cop is escorting the tank, also shown, is a uniformed British officer, is this Captain Haig, Tank Corps ? members of the tank crew are also atop the tank.
LF

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•  Britannia New York Cop.jpg   49.01K   1 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 31 March 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

This photograph shows Britannia on the streets of New York during her visit to the city, a New York cop is escorting the tank, also shown, is a uniformed British officer, is this Captain Haig, Tank Corps ? members of the tank crew are also atop the tank.
LF

Britannia made at least 7 visits to New York and had her lair near Grand Central Station. The photo you display is of 8th March 1918 (4th visit) and was taken by a photographer from the New York Tribune (I have a clearer version) Yes that is Captain Haig. you may notice that he usually walks (marches) with his left leg stiff, this was due to a bullet through the knee at 3rd Ypres. The tank was on route to the building site of a new court house to do a demo that the NYFD had blocked elsewhere (they still curtailed firing blank rounds on a building site as a "fire hazard"). The civilians on top are local politicians. The truck visible behind can be seen following the tank in a number of different cities and was probably its support vehicle (and so would have had to be loaded on the train when the tank was travelling)

[centurion]

I wonder if it would help to say what I am still  looking for

• St Louis - photo(s) and dates - I have information on where and what it did there but not when
• Camp Grant Illinois - dates - I have one photo
• Buffalo -any photo - I know when (April 16 1918) and where she was and what she did but only in text (Official report)
• Syracuse   -any photo - I know when (March 14-17 1918) and where she was and what she did but only in text (Newspapers)
• Detroit   -any photo - I know when (June 19-26 1918) and where she was and what she did but only in text  (Diary of eye witness)
• Camp Polk S Carolina - Photo, dates etc I only know she was there on 17th Jan 1919 awaiting shipment to Camp Colt
• Camp Colt - anything at all

[centurion]

And anyone know where this is?

 britannia_03041918.jpg   13.39K   0 downloads

Haig and Burnside standing in front of the tank




She was in Philadelphia on 23rd March for about a week and arrived in Boston on April 9th - so where was she on 3rd April?

[bob lembke]

Centurion;

OK. Just let me know if you want a bit of "mo-jo" if you have to approach Aberdeen or Cornell.

Daniel;

Broadway was originally an Indian trail running from the tip of Manhattan up to Albany, about 150 miles to the north. It was kept in use and eventually paved over. So it runs in some direct fashion diagonally across the regular grid pattern of streets eventually imposed on Manhattan.

Likewise, in central (and south) Philadelphia we have at least one street running at an angle across the grid pattern of streets designed and imposed by Pennsylvania's Quaker founder, William Penn. ("Pennsylvania" = "Penn's Woods", I think. Latin grammar a weak point here.) This road is called "Passyunk Avenue", which I think is itself an Indian name.

The original photo is facing south, 23rd Street running east and west behind the wider south base of the Flatiron Building.

Bob

[centurion]

A word of warning to any modellers out there who are thinking of making Britannia - do not use the illustration in the Osprey book on the Mk IV when painting it. This illustration is inaccurate as it shows the tank in plain brown finish rolling past the flat iron with Britannia painted on the front plate. As you can see from this photo the front plate was blank at this time

 Tankon5thAvenue.jpg   73.25K   0 downloads

In fact having now been able to sequence the photos I have much better (allowing for more than one visit to some cities) the earliest photo I can find of the tank with Britannia stencilled on is dated 17th June 1918. By this time she had had a repaint and was sporting a form of camouflage. So if you want to model her in the form she was on her first outing in Oct 1917 ditch the Britannia.stencil.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Interesting thread Mr. C, and some greast photos, is the Mk4 in Ashford, Kent the only one left on public display(by that I mean kept on show as intended when donated to towns after the war)? Regards Sean

[centurion]

bob lembke, on 31 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Broadway was originally an Indian trail running from the tip of Manhattan up to Albany, about 150 miles to the north. It was kept in use and eventually paved over. So it runs in some direct fashion diagonally across the regular grid pattern of streets eventually imposed on Manhattan.

Those Stan Murches amongst you* who are interested in routes throgh New Yok might like to see something "wot I wrote earlier" about the parade.

At this time the United States had a small, relatively under equipped, army. Huge new camps were filling up with inexperienced and untrained new soldiers and American industry was desperately tooling up whilst Britain and France were providing artillery, mortars and machine guns, to some extent at the expense of their own armies' needs, but soldiers take time to train and factories do not come into being overnight.  As a result at this stage there was not that much military muscle available to be displayed in the parade. Some of the deficit was to be made up by the New York National Guard who fielded three  large armoured cars. These represented a very significant proportion of America's total armoured might. The cars (each built on truck chassis) were open topped and mounted two machine guns each; by European standards they were obsolete. A grenade  lobbed into them would knock out the crew and the German armour piercing K rounds would easily punch through their boiler plate sides. Nevertheless they had seen active service against the Mexicans as part of General Pershing's punitive expedition and their sheer size made them look  impressive.

As the cars entered Madison Square to pass the parade reviewing stand a British heavy tank which had been waiting there having driven up from one of the piers swung into position ahead of them. It was a 30 ton Mark IV Female armed with five machine guns, the same  model being currently in service with the British Tank Corps in France and it dwarfed the armoured cars. . The Stars and Stripes and the 'Union Jack' flew from staffs at the front of the tank; this was the first time that the British Army had flown the Union Flag in the United States since the end of the War of 1812 (and the first time in New York since the end of the War of Independence). A placard on top of the tank proclaimed  “British Tank Britannia” whilst a banner exhorted the public to buy bonds. The tank's commander a Captain Richard Haigh MC rode on its roof. Amid clouds of white exhaust smoke and much cheering Britannia continued with the parade along 5th Avenue, following sailors from the Brooklyn Navy Yard and leading the armoured cars to the procession's conclusion in Sheep Meadow, Central Park where the captured German U Boat UC5 had been installed. This site was to be Britannia's base for the next few days. Thousands of New Yorkers flocked to Sheep Meadow to view the U boat and the tank and a great many liberty bonds were sold.


* Those who read Donald Westlake's Dortmunder novels will understand.

[4thGordons]

centurion, on 31 March 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

I wonder if it would help to say what I am still  looking for

[list=1][*]St Louis - photo(s) and dates - I have information on where and what it did there but not when[*]Camp Grant Illinois - dates - I have one photo[*]

I know we have communicated about this previously but do you have a range of dates for either of these? IE Do you have any sense of between when and when for either location?
I have some connections with folks who know about Camp Grant and I am relatively close to St Louis so might be able to make enquires or go through area papers (assuming it would have been covered)
Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Britannia in New York photographed from a slightly different angle.

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•  Britannia in new york..jpg   13.54K   1 downloads

[centurion]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 31 March 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Britannia in New York photographed from a slightly different angle.

Again no Britannia on the front plate. There are better versions of this photo - i e not leaning over.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

4thGordons, on 31 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

do you have a range of dates for either of these? IE Do you have any sense of between when and when for either location?
I have some connections with folks who know about Camp Grant and I am relatively close to St Louis so might be able to make enquires or go through area papers (assuming it would have been covered)
Chris

Chris,
You are obviously familiar with Forest Park in St. Louis, and I found a report which was actually dealing with munitions contamination in Forest Park, and in that report, it mentions that " in 1917, the Army tank ' Britannia ' gave a demonstration in the park. Thousands of patriotic citizens followed the tank around the park. "
Hope this helps you with an actual location and time frame.
Regards,
LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

4thGordons, on 31 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I have some connections with folks who know about Camp Grant and I am relatively close to St Louis so might be able to make enquires or go through area papers (assuming it would have been covered)
Chris

Chris,
Here is another very interesting link between Britannia and St. Louis, back in 1918 there was a large Company " Frisco " ( 23,000 employes ) based in St. Louis, may even possibly be in existance today ? They produced a monthly in-house magazine " The Frisco-Man ", and in their March, 1918 edition there is an excellent front cover photograph of Britannia with good detail of the tank's rear/stern end showing the exhaust pipe, a view typically not photographed.
Again we have a documented time line, and location, as the inside story refers to Britannia at Camp Upton. Do you know of Camp Upton ? and is there any connection between Camp Upton and Camp Grant ?
Regards,
LF

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•  Britannia Frisco heading.jpg   37K   0 downloads

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2

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•  Britannia Frisco story x.jpg   41.5K   0 downloads

[centurion]

4thGordons, on 31 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I know we have communicated about this previously but do you have a range of dates for either of these? IE Do you have any sense of between when and when for either location?
I have some connections with folks who know about Camp Grant and I am relatively close to St Louis so might be able to make enquires or go through area papers (assuming it would have been covered)
Chris

All I have for Camp Grant is a photo of the tank from the rear annotated Camp Grant. It appears about to roll onto a flatbed railway truck. St Louis - there is a report of a demo in Forest Park St Louis attended by thousands. This is in a Federal government  report on the discovery of live munitions in the park that lists all the military events in WW1 in that location. Unfortunately it places the tank as being there sometime between April and Sept 1917 (Britannia did not arrive in the USA until October). Windows in the pattern of activity I have built up that might fit are all of May and the first part of June 1918 , August 1918 and the last 10 days in September.