12 replies to this topic

[justin]

Hi All

In February I went on a battlefields trip to Ypres and the Somme. One of the students parents accompanied her son and gave me some photographs plus a copy of a newspaper article about her grandmother, Isabel Smith who was apparently 'bombed' whilst on service at the Rouen Red Cross/St John's hospital.

The information I have is copied below (the little I found out on her grandmother without the St Johns service file if it survives) plus what I was told by the parent. The links to the photographs and the article are pasted in below. In the group photograph Isabel Smith is the young lady holding the cat.

Any help on either the bombing, life as a VAD at Rouen or details in the photographs (uniform etc, for example the uniform worn by the lady holding the dog) would be greatly appreciated. I will of course pass on any information to the parent and her son.

Thanks

Justin


'I have just looked in a book I have called British Red Cross Register of Overseas Volunteers 1914-1918. Interestingly in her entry her first name is spelt Isobel and she is listed as a St Johns volunteer (during the war St Johns and the Red Cross worked together). Next to her name are the letter h.m. which means House Member (not sure what this means, perhaps equivalent to nurse).'

'These are the brief details of my grandmother, Isabel Smith
Dunngan co Tyrone
Born dec 8th 1899
Joined as VAD in 1916
Based in Rouen
15232
Pres
Demobed 1919'

https://picasaweb.go...291985914044738
https://picasaweb.go...292038407378082
https://picasaweb.go...292113726030818

[kenf48]

I can only offer a little help on the bombing, in May 1918 the Germans launched a series of aerial bombing raids to target the hospitals and communication centres in the rear areas of Northern France, unsurprisingly this campaign became known as the 'Hospital Raids'.   Within this campaign the the first of these raids was on Etaples on the 19th/20th May.

The expert on all things WW1 Nursing is Sue Light, and on her website 'Scarlet finders' she has transcribed the Diary of the Matron-in-Chief
http://www.scarletfi...s.co.uk/90.html

The above war diary notes the first raid on Rouen was on the 29th May 1918.

In the entry for the 31st May the diary gives a brief summary of the raids during the month, together with a list of casualties among her staff (though not the patients, RAMC etc - although there is an indication of those in the main text).
The main targets were Etaples, Abbeville and Boulogne.  It is arguable whether the Base Depots (where the hospitals were located) were a legitimate target as they were a staging post for reinforcements, but at Etaples no air raid precautions were in place when the first raid took place.

Whether or not the centres were a legitimate target the series of raids and casualties among the nurses and wounded were a propaganda gift showing the danger of the 'cornered Hun'.  The raids reduced in intensity in June as evidenced by the summary in the war diary at the end of that month.


The raid on Etaples was conducted by Boghol (Bomber Squadron) 6 of the Imperial German Army Air Force.  The Squadron flew AEG bombers
( http://www.wwiaviati...ers_german.html ) and was based at Matigny, close to Saint Quentin.  I don't know whether or not they were involved in the attack on Rouen but it seems likely.


The raids were later cited as the League of Nations grappled with the ethics and morality of aerial bombardment during the subsequent post-war decades.
Ken

[justin]

kenf48, on 06 April 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

I can only offer a little help on the bombing, in May 1918 the Germans launched a series of aerial bombing raids to target the hospitals and communication centres in the rear areas of Northern France, unsurprisingly this campaign became known as the 'Hospital Raids'.   Within this campaign the the first of these raids was on Etaples on the 19th/20th May.

The expert on all things WW1 Nursing is Sue Light, and on her website 'Scarlet finders' she has transcribed the Diary of the Matron-in-Chief
http://www.scarletfi...s.co.uk/90.html

The above war diary notes the first raid on Rouen was on the 29th May 1918.

In the entry for the 31st May the diary gives a brief summary of the raids during the month, together with a list of casualties among her staff (though not the patients, RAMC etc - although there is an indication of those in the main text).
The main targets were Etaples, Abbeville and Boulogne.  It is arguable whether the Base Depots (where the hospitals were located) were a legitimate target as they were a staging post for reinforcements, but at Etaples no air raid precautions were in place when the first raid took place.

Whether or not the centres were a legitimate target the series of raids and casualties among the nurses and wounded were a propaganda gift showing the danger of the 'cornered Hun'.  The raids reduced in intensity in June as evidenced by the summary in the war diary at the end of that month.


The raid on Etaples was conducted by Boghol (Bomber Squadron) 6 of the Imperial German Army Air Force.  The Squadron flew AEG bombers
( http://www.wwiaviati...ers_german.html ) and was based at Matigny, close to Saint Quentin.  I don't know whether or not they were involved in the attack on Rouen but it seems likely.


The raids were later cited as the League of Nations grappled with the ethics and morality of aerial bombardment during the subsequent post-war decades.
Ken

Thanks Ken for the information here which is fascinating and identifies what gave rise to the claim made in the article. What would now be interesting to move the picture further forward is an analysis of the photos. I notice that they show Nissen Huts and gardens. As Isabel was a St Johns volunteer is there any chance of identifying which one of the hospitals at Rouen she worked in and would the hospitals have dealt with different levels of wounded/casualties? Also what does 'House Member' mean?

Best

Justin

[kenf48]

There is a full list of hospitals on the LLT
http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals.htm

It lists No 2 Red Cross Hospital @ Rouen - so wild guess and yours would be as good as mine!  
Although there were some specialist hospitals these tended to be at home and generally casualties were sent where they could be treated, for example many British casualties would end up in Canadian and other 'Empire'  hospitals.  However as i said Sue is the real expert on Nursing.  My research centres on Etaples where my great uncle was killed during the raid.

I've previously posted the link to this film showing the aftermath of the Etaples raid.
http://www3.nfb.ca/w...m.php?id=531255

There are a number of threads on the forum for the Casualties and raids see for example http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=70354
esp. the headline at post 5
"German Frightfulness Again Vented on Wounded Soldiers and Their Attendants – Teuton Flyers “Did Not See” Red Cross Sign, but Say it’s Hospitals are Near Railways British Must Expect to Get Them Bombed"



Ken

[Sue Light]

Justin

This should be simple, but there's something about it that doesn't quite fit.  I'm not quite sure from your first post, which information came from the relative, and which were your own additions.  Was it you who looked in the BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers, or the relative?  And where did the information come from about her joining in 1916?  

One real problem is her date of birth.  It's is given as 8th December 1899, but the minimum age for nursing VADs to go on overseas service was 23. Even acknowledging that some women knocked a couple of years off their age, it seems extremely unlikely that she could have been in France prior to the Armistice.  In the photo dated April 1919 she would still only be nineteen.

The BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers shows two women of similar names still serving at the Armistice.  One is the Isobel Smith you have mentioned in your initial post, but there's a second, Isabel Smith, who was working as an Assistant Cook.  Do the relatives know that the one given was their relative, or has the second 'Isabel' been discounted on account of her being a cook?  

I have to assume that the photo is definitely known to be the relative's grandmother, and that she was in Rouen in April 1919.  The uniforms of BRCS and St. John VADs can be quite hard to separate in photos, and there are no real clues here.  The 'officer' appears to be BRCS, but there would probably be some of each at a hospital.  However, could I put forward the possibility that Isabel Smith isn't either of the women named in the BRCS Register and actually went to France after the Armistice. If so, then her name wouldn't figure at all in the BRCS Register.

Is the relative certain that the newspaper cutting refers to her grandmother?  Could it refer to another Isobel Smith?  There was an air-raid on the night of 30/31st May 1918, which destroyed the St. John Ambulance Hospital at Etaples, but clearly a woman with a birth date of December 1899 could not have been working as a VAD in France at that time.  But almost every nurse working at hospitals on the French coast during 1917 and 1918 would have been 'under fire' at some time - it was normal, and certainly not a rare occurrrence.

There were many military hospitals in Rouen.  This could have been any of them, but unlikely to be No.2 BRCS Hospital which was housed in buildings in the town and not huts.

The problem surrounding the date of birth needs to be confirmed.  The grandmother might have dropped her age later in life and was older than she said.  If a birth certificate confirms it, then it makes the rest of the information begin to look 'difficult.'
If the relatives haven't already gone in search of her service details (though if not, how do they know she joined in 1916?) the BRCS Archives hold all surviving records for both BRCS and St. John VADs. But it seems likely that there might have been two Isabel/Isobel Smiths living in the same locality, so care needs to be taken.

BRCS Archives

Regards   ---   Sue

[justin]

kenf48, on 06 April 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

There is a full list of hospitals on the LLT
http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals.htm

It lists No 2 Red Cross Hospital @ Rouen - so wild guess and yours would be as good as mine!  
Although there were some specialist hospitals these tended to be at home and generally casualties were sent where they could be treated, for example many British casualties would end up in Canadian and other 'Empire'  hospitals.  However as i said Sue is the real expert on Nursing.  My research centres on Etaples where my great uncle was killed during the raid.

I've previously posted the link to this film showing the aftermath of the Etaples raid.
http://www3.nfb.ca/w...m.php?id=531255

There are a number of threads on the forum for the Casualties and raids see for example http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=70354
esp. the headline at post 5
"German Frightfulness Again Vented on Wounded Soldiers and Their Attendants – Teuton Flyers “Did Not See” Red Cross Sign, but Say it’s Hospitals are Near Railways British Must Expect to Get Them Bombed"



Ken

Thanks Ken for being so helpful. I think you are right that it was no 2 Red Cross Hospital at Rouen , although interestingly Isabel's photographs are from 1919, suggesting that it stayed open a little longer than the December 1918 listed on the LLT (although with a ?). Isabel was demobilised in 1919. I will try sending a message to Sue on the nursing aspects of life as a St Johns VAD. My area of interest previous to this has been the Army and Navy, so it is great to be looking at the conflict from a different angle.

Best

Justin

[justin]

Sue Light, on 06 April 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Justin

This should be simple, but there's something about it that doesn't quite fit.  I'm not quite sure from your first post, which information came from the relative, and which were your own additions.  Was it you who looked in the BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers, or the relative?  And where did the information come from about her joining in 1916?  

One real problem is her date of birth.  It's is given as 8th December 1899, but the minimum age for nursing VADs to go on overseas service was 23. Even acknowledging that some women knocked a couple of years off their age, it seems extremely unlikely that she could have been in France prior to the Armistice.  In the photo dated April 1919 she would still only be nineteen.

The BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers shows two women of similar names still serving at the Armistice.  One is the Isobel Smith you have mentioned in your initial post, but there's a second, Isabel Smith, who was working as an Assistant Cook.  Do the relatives know that the one given was their relative, or has the second 'Isabel' been discounted on account of her being a cook?  

I have to assume that the photo is definitely known to be the relative's grandmother, and that she was in Rouen in April 1919.  The uniforms of BRCS and St. John VADs can be quite hard to separate in photos, and there are no real clues here.  The 'officer' appears to be BRCS, but there would probably be some of each at a hospital.  However, could I put forward the possibility that Isabel Smith isn't either of the women named in the BRCS Register and actually went to France after the Armistice. If so, then her name wouldn't figure at all in the BRCS Register.

Is the relative certain that the newspaper cutting refers to her grandmother?  Could it refer to another Isobel Smith?  There was an air-raid on the night of 30/31st May 1918, which destroyed the St. John Ambulance Hospital at Etaples, but clearly a woman with a birth date of December 1899 could not have been working as a VAD in France at that time.  But almost every nurse working at hospitals on the French coast during 1917 and 1918 would have been 'under fire' at some time - it was normal, and certainly not a rare occurrrence.

There were many military hospitals in Rouen.  This could have been any of them, but unlikely to be No.2 BRCS Hospital which was housed in buildings in the town and not huts.

The problem surrounding the date of birth needs to be confirmed.  The grandmother might have dropped her age later in life and was older than she said.  If a birth certificate confirms it, then it makes the rest of the information begin to look 'difficult.'
If the relatives haven't already gone in search of her service details (though if not, how do they know she joined in 1916?) the BRCS Archives hold all surviving records for both BRCS and St. John VADs. But it seems likely that there might have been two Isabel/Isobel Smiths living in the same locality, so care needs to be taken.

BRCS Archives

Regards   ---   Sue

Hi Sue

Thanks for all of your advice which is making this even more interesting.

The following was provided by the relative:

These are the brief details of my grandmother, Isabel Smith
Dunngan co Tyrone
Born dec 8th 1899
Joined as VAD in 1916
Based in Rouen
15232
Pres
Demobed 1919


After being given this I found the following information in the BRC Register of Overseas Volunteers:

V.A.D. h.m. Smith, Isobel 15232 W.O. St John France

The number was the same as the one given by the relative.

On the copy of the newspaper article I was given, there are comments, which I cropped out when it was scanned. They say (with two arrows pointing to the title 'NURSE UNDER FIRE IN WAR') 'AND WE WONDER HOW IT EVER GOT ABOUT.!! Mother (this looks like the mother signing it as mother).

This is all intriguing and it looks like I will need to ask the relative if that is indeed the birth date of their grandmother. It also makes me wonder if 23 was the minimum age to be a VAD, did anyone lie about their age to be allowed to join?

Best wishes


Justin

P.S. I will check the Irish BMD records that are online at Familysearch to see how many Isobel Smiths born in Ireland in the 1890s.

[Sue Light]

23 was the minimum age for going overseas.  She could certainly have joined as a VAD in the UK at a younger age.  Again, for nursing duties, the minimum joining age in the UK was nineteen, but there were certainly women known to have been younger than that.  However, joining at sixteen does seem too young.
The fact that the relatives have details that include 'Pres' suggest that they come from dog tags or some sort of paperwork.  I think a house member would not have been working in hospital, but would have been engaged in some sort of duties within living accommodation, nurses' hostels etc.  She just needs to be older - it would really help if she'd been born four or five years earlier -  this is one occasion when discovering she'd lied to her family about her age later in life would have been really useful!

Sue

[justin]

justin, on 06 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Hi Sue

Thanks for all of your advice which is making this even more interesting.

The following was provided by the relative:

These are the brief details of my grandmother, Isabel Smith
Dunngan co Tyrone
Born dec 8th 1899
Joined as VAD in 1916
Based in Rouen
15232
Pres
Demobed 1919


After being given this I found the following information in the BRC Register of Overseas Volunteers:

V.A.D. h.m. Smith, Isobel 15232 W.O. St John France

The number was the same as the one given by the relative.

On the copy of the newspaper article I was given, there are comments, which I cropped out when it was scanned. They say (with two arrows pointing to the title 'NURSE UNDER FIRE IN WAR') 'AND WE WONDER HOW IT EVER GOT ABOUT.!! Mother (this looks like the mother signing it as mother).

This is all intriguing and it looks like I will need to ask the relative if that is indeed the birth date of their grandmother. It also makes me wonder if 23 was the minimum age to be a VAD, did anyone lie about their age to be allowed to join?

Best wishes


Justin

P.S. I will check the Irish BMD records that are online at Familysearch to see how many Isobel Smiths born in Ireland in the 1890s.

Here are the results from Familysearch where I looked firstly for Isabel Smith born from 1890 (to give it a range, the girl in the photograph does look quite young, in her 20s at most)

https://www.familyse...tion_id=1408347

and Isabel Smith born from 1890

https://www.familyse...tion_id=1408347

and it still leaves the following as the only candidate that tallies with the information from the relative:

Isobel Smith

Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

birth: Oct - Dec 1899 Dungannon

[Sue Light]

I'm sure the next step would have to be contacting the BRCS Archives and see if they have anything on her, and if they do, it would be interesting to know how old she said she was. It's certainly an odd one.

Sue

[justin]

Sue Light, on 06 April 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I'm sure the next step would have to be contacting the BRCS Archives and see if they have anything on her, and if they do, it would be interesting to know how old she said she was. It's certainly an odd one.

Sue

Thanks Sue for your help and expertise, it nows looks very interesting and I shall update this post as soon as I have any more information. It would be fascinating if Isobel was underage but got to serve in France.

Justin

[munster]

This may be her on 1901 census Ireland.john
http://www.census.na...Street/1739799/

[justin]

Just found a medal card for VAD Isobel Smith, has the Victory Medal Roll Ref No: VAD/10/101/B6/106 and Ditto for the British War Medal (must be recorded in the same register), but no VAD service number. Would be very grateful if any of the respondents on the forum either have a copy of this roll (Sue perhaps) or could look up the information for me (I have no chance of getting near to Kew in the next few months mores the pity and would be very grateful for any help). It may or may not contain more information but it might offer some more info on this surprisingly young VAD in an operational theatre which I would love to pass on to the family and I know from the responses to this thread would be of interest to Sue and other members of the forum.

Thanks

Justin