71 replies to this topic

[Andrew Upton]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 18 April 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Andrew,
The set-up 1903 display, is the same as in the post #44 1903 equipment photograph, as it should be.
Regards,
LF

I know, but as it shows it from the back as well (which rarely appears neatly in period photos), including the greatcoat carrier in-situ, I thought it would be useful (hence the angles quip).

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the later Pattern 1908 web equipment, for marching order, both the waterproof sheet and the blanket were secured to the backpack by crossed straps.
The waterproof sheet was folded square and flat, the blanket was partially rolled on top of the backpack with the remainder laid flat against the backpack.
I assume the Greatcoat was folded inside the backpack ? Was there enough room in the backpack for the folded Greatcoat ?
LF

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•  Greatcoat 4pics marching order.jpg   20.64K   7 downloads

[Andrew Upton]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 18 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

I assume the Greatcoat was folded inside the backpack ? Was there enough room in the backpack for the folded Greatcoat ?
LF

With room to spare!  

http://1914-1918.inv...1

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Andrew Upton, on 18 April 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

I know, but as it shows it from the back as well (which rarely appears neatly in period photos), including the greatcoat carrier in-situ, I thought it would be useful (hence the angles quip).

You are right, period photographs of actual troops are typically always front shots, so you never get to see a good shot of the equipment in use on their backs.
I have just posted some period photographs of the kit from the back, but they are from a training manual.
LF

[GRANVILLE]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 18 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

With the later Pattern 1908 web equipment, for marching order, both the waterproof sheet and the blanket were secured to the backpack by crossed straps.
The waterproof sheet was folded square and flat, the blanket was partially rolled on top of the backpack with the remainder laid flat against the backpack.
I assume the Greatcoat was folded inside the backpack ? Was there enough room in the backpack for the folded Greatcoat ?
LF

I've been in and out of books relating to WW1 for over 40yrs and yet most of the images you manage to locate I've never seen - remarkable LF!
I've certainly never seen blankets handled in this way before and from the sheer smartness of the whole set-up I'll wager this must be from The Guards Divisions? Those boys were famous for buying up the thin wooden sides of fruit boxes & the like so as to use them as inserts into their packs thus giving them that incredibly 'squared off' look; you can see this quite distinctly in a number of photos featuring Guards on the march, no doubt LF will be able to find suitable to illustrate.

Concerning the Greatcoat into the Pack, Andrew is quite right to point towards an earlier thread which cropped up on this one. I raised the subject at around the time I managed to get both an actual Greatcoat and one of Taff's (Khaki Devils) reproduction Greatcoats. Looking at the mass of material I could not comprehend how it could possibly be done. Spurred on by reassurances from Taff that it can be done I had a session with one of the coats and behold it fitted in quite snugly!

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[GRANVILLE]

From this:

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[GRANVILLE]

To this:

To this:

To this:

I might just add that this Greatcoat is a very generous size suitable for going over the tunic as worn by a man 6' tall with gereous proportions! It's not an one as migt be worn by many of the undersized youths of the day.

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[truthergw]

If nothing else, this thread shows how the only easy way to carry a greatcoat was to wear it and helps explain why men were at times ordered to leave them behind. I was issued with one when I joined TA in the fifties. First job was to cut off the bakelite buttons and replace them with nice brass ones that needed polishing. Sta-brite were frowned upon and had to be bought.

[Grovetown]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 17 April 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

In this photograph, we see what is probably the Greatcoat folded and then secured to the backpack with straps.
LF

Hi Leo

These men aren't wearing packs - the greatcoat is being toted with the carrier specifically designed for the 1903 Pattern equipment. Indeed, there was no backpack designed as part of the 1903, just a shoulder slung haversack.

Cheers,

GT.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Grovetown, on 18 April 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hi Leo

These men aren't wearing packs - the greatcoat is being toted with the carrier specifically designed for the 1903 Pattern equipment. Indeed, there was no backpack designed as part of the 1903, just a shoulder slung haversack.

Cheers,

GT.

Hi GT,
Thanks for the clarification, as Andrew mentioned earlier, it is so helpful when seeing the actual kit layout in full view, not just an obscured front view as in that particular photograph, and from his link you can see the 1903 kit configuration from all angles which makes things so much clearer.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not forgetting the mounted/cavalry troops' Marching Order :-

A. Obligatory

Detail of Uniform to be worn by officers:-

Saddlery :- A complete set of Officers' Saddlery will be issued to each Officer. The following additional articles are required :-
Jowl plume, with plain plated boss. Regimental bridle bosses, obtainable from the Regimental Saddler-Staff Sergeant, to whom must be sent one pair of bronze collar badges.

Drill Order Mounted

Officers :- Service Dress; issued Saddlery, without wallets; jowl plume, except on tactical work; shoe case empty; sword on the saddle.

Other Ranks :- Service dress, issued Saddlery; rifle and sword on the saddle; saddle otherwise stripped; shoe case empty.

Church Parade Order Mounted

All ranks :- As for drill order, mounted, but with medals, and without rifle.

Marching Order

(The detail is given in terms of other ranks, and Officers will conform.)

On the horse

Blankets :- Under the saddle.
Cloak :- Rolled 32 inches in length, place on the front arch of the saddle.
Waterproof sheet :- Rolled as the cloak, and placed on the top of the cloak so that the buckles of the straps lie midway between the top of the cloak and the front arch of the saddle, with tongues and buckles downward.
Mess Tin :- Strapped on to the rifle bucket, holes of the tin uppermost.
Water bucket :- Placed over the rifle bucket.
Straps, SPP :- On the shoe case strap, near side.
Pegs, 2 :- Loops placed over the scabbard, and the pegs hung down the side of the scabbard.
Hay net :- Placed on top of the pegs, so that the pegs and the hay net are secured round the scabbard by the strap SPP.
Nose bag :- Strap to pass through the "D" of the rear fan of the saddle, through the centre "D" of the rear arch of the saddle, and fastened so that the bag lies in front of the sword.
Head rope :- Through the lower ring of the back strap of the head collar, and knotted round the neck with four and a half coils.
Built up rope :- Placed over the horse's neck, with the ring on the off side.
Heel shackle :- The strap through both rings of the head collar, and coiled on to the ring of the built up rope.
Grooming kit :- In the nose bag.

On the man

Water bottle :- With strap over left shoulder, the bottle under the right arm, and hung up to the right shoulder.
Haversack :- Over right shoulder, under left arm , the bottom edge of the haversack being in line with the button of the bottom pocket of the SD jacket.
Bandolier :- Over the left shoulder.
Field glasses (those to whom issued) :- Over the left shoulder, and under the bandolier.
Revolver (those to whom issued) :- on the left side, with the lanyard round the neck.
Revolver pouch (those to whom issued) :- On the right side.
Steel helmets will be worn.

LF

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[Lancashire Fusilier]

WW1 Saddle Kit - left & right sides, and detail of sabre with attachments.

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[Lancashire Fusilier]

In addition to the range of various " Greatcoats, Drab ", issued to troops, another version of the Greatcoat was the " Coat, Sheepskin lined ". Introduced at the start of WW1, it was issued mainly to Army Service Corps ( ASC ) Drivers, who needed a particularly warm coat when driving their open cab vehicles.
Made from heavy brownish khaki canvas, and lined with sheepskin, the coat had five metal clasp front fastners instead of buttons, with a large sheepskin collar.
By May of 1916, these coats were withdrawn from issue " at home ".
The following 4 photographs show the " Coat, Sheepskin lined " in use.
LF

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•  sheepskin ambulance.jpg   55.33K   1 downloads

[GRANVILLE]

Excellent postings here.
DU

[Krithia]

GRANVILLE, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

I've been in and out of books relating to WW1 for over 40yrs and yet most of the images you manage to locate I've never seen - remarkable LF!

Looks like LF has a copy of my book. Check out "Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in World War One" by Stephen Chambers. All of these photos are from that volume, which are just a handful of the 600 others also included. Available from Amazon and Schiffer.

Rgs Krithia

[Terry_Reeves]

And a very good book it is Stephen. It's a pity that your copyright appears to have been breached.

TR

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Terry_Reeves, on 16 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

And a very good book it is Stephen. It's a pity that your copyright appears to have been breached.

TR

My understanding has always been that provided the information is not used for commercial purposes or financial gain, but is purely for educational and information purposes, then there has been no breach of copyright.
I am sure the member concerned is happy to share his information with his fellow Forum members, providing they are not financially exploiting the material.

LF

[Krithia]

I am more than happy for the odd photo to be reproduced here to help out our forum pals. My stance, if the copyright holder cannot be traced, is to always source any published copyright material,  that way at least you are being transparent with the material being used.

LF has my full permission here, a good post it is too!

Regards, Krithia

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Krithia, on 16 June 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

I am more than happy for the odd photo to be reproduced here to help out our forum pals. My stance, if the copyright holder cannot be traced, is to always source any published copyright material,  that way at least you are being transparent with the material being used.

LF has my full permission here, a good post it is too!

Regards, Krithia

Your generosity in allowing us to share the material from your book, is matched by the high quality of the material contained in your book. it is a wonderful source of information on many hunderds and hundreds of WW1 items, and I highly recommend it it any member looking for a credible source of information with high quality photographs, it is also a very enjoyable read for anyone interested in WW1.
Regards,
LF

[RobL]

I've acquired a reproduction 1909 pattern greatcoat and have a few questions about pecularities on the greatcoat;

The collar hooks go the opposite way to each other - for example there is one eye and one hook on outside so you can't do both up together like on the SD Tunic.

The wool strap on the back with buttons has holes behind the strap, presumably so the strap can be worn inside the coat - is this to make it more comfortable when webbing is worn?

On the RFC Greatcoat, there is a small, roughly triangular piece of wool held in place by two buttons, that is worn across the front opening of the collar when the collar is up to block off the gap - there is another button on the underside of the other side of the collar to facilitate this. On the greatcoat, there is just a small strip of wool, but it is not held in place by a button on the side of the collar it is on, so just hangs loose when not attached to the other collar, is this correct?

Thanks, Rob

[centurion]

GRANVILLE, on 11 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

You disappoint me Rob! I thought you would be able to tell of a week in a water filled trench, slaumed in mud and wet to the skin!  

Dave

Talking to  Joseph Kagan later Lord Kagan (the man who invented the Gannex Mac made famous by Harold Wilson) in  1967 I learned that the Gannex was developed because of the inability of the British great coat to keep a man war when wet (and the way it could soak up water). The War Office financed its development in order to achieve something that was warm and waterproof and then never adopted its use except for some stuff for special forces.

[GRANVILLE]

I've always been of the opinion that the Greatcoat was the best that they could come up at that time. Until it gets absolutely sodden - and I imagine they would originally have endeavoured to not let it get into this state in the first place, then it would do a pretty good job of keeping the man reasonably warm and dry. On this subject I can speak with a degree of experience having been in the police in the mid 70's, when Greatcoats were the norm. With nothing better to compare them against, we were always glad of being able to wear them on freezing winter nights and invariably have the collar turned up. If you became inactive, you would begin to chill regardless, so there was an incentive to keep plodding your beat. Because they were not 100% waterproof we were also issued with black rubberised Gannex macs. They were featherweight compared to the Greatcoats, but they were never warm and generally smelled when they got wet through. By the 80's quilted jackets & Gortex was fast becoming the norm, but of course in 1914 such materials had not been dreamt of yet, which is why I think the Greatcoats under discussion were as good they got in their day. What I don't think anyone had considered, was expecting the men to have to stand around for hours and hours in freezing conditions, up to their knees and beyond in water filled trenches whilst still trying to keep warm and dry in what they had at their disposal. I suspect someone wearing state of the art outdoor kit would still find the experience a nightmare.


Dave