39 replies to this topic

[Suddery]

I have just finished the excellent Great War Diaries of Major Edward Cadogan, "Under Fire in the Dardanelles" published by Pen & Sword and felt I must share an extraordinary and tragic passage. By way of context and background, the Suffolk Yeomanry were mobilized on 5th August in Bury St Edmunds then swiftly ordered to Ipswich on the 10th where rounds were issued in anticipation of a feared imminent invasion. The following is Cadogan's diary entry for  the 12th:

" A curious incident occurred as Hogson and I, with our batmen, were proceeding to our objective. Hodgson suddenly realised he had left his sword behind in camp so he sent his batman back to fetch it. The batman was riding towards our billet when he reached a gate by the roadside. He dismounted, tied his horse to the gate, put the muzzle of his rifle in his mouth and blew his brains out".

I found this quite shocking, especially in view of the wave of patriotic fervour that was sweeping the country at this stage. Although I fully appreciate the incident could have been triggered by some unrelated personal tragedy, it does seem likely to have been at the very least strongly affected by the imminence of invasion.

I wondered if any similar or otherwise extraordinary responses are recorded to the initial call to mobilization.

Suddery

[centurion]

The invasion scare was very brief and I have the impression not taken particularly seriously, but the motions had to be gone through with "just in case"

[Suddery]

centurion, on 11 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

The invasion scare was very brief and I have the impression not taken particularly seriously, but the motions had to be gone through with "just in case"

True no doubt, especially where the air was more rarefied, but poor old Hodgson's batman seemed to have been taking things pretty seriously.

[Will O'Brien]

There may be a clue to the reason behind his actions in the soldiers records. The soldier in question was easily traceable & there is a good match on ancestry so it is quite possible they exist.

[centurion]

Suddery, on 11 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

True no doubt, especially where the air was more rarefied, but poor old Hodgson's batman seemed to have been taking things pretty seriously.

Surely you mean Hodgeson's poor old batman? Impossible to know, if some other great anxiety was the cause of his action the invasion scare may barely have impinged on his thinking. BTW I think most of the panic was in the rarefied areas, those closer to (non) events seem to have been more sanguine and regarded the whole thing as a cock up and general bloody nuisance.

[Stoppage Drill]

You know the date, you know where. Local newspapers of the time invariably carried very detailed reports of coroners proceedings, and they were generally conducted very soon after death was reported, so maybe a contributor in Suffolk can look it up for you. Suicide was, of course, a crime until 1961 IIRC and coroners juries of that period were usually very generous in accepting that the act was performed whilst in a state of temporary insanity. Otherwise, the "felo de se" verdict was passed which in earlier years would have led to escheat of property and to burial difficulties.

[Suddery]

centurion, on 11 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Surely you mean Hodgeson's poor old batman? Impossible to know, if some other great anxiety was the cause of his action the invasion scare may barely have impinged on his thinking. BTW I think most of the panic was in the rarefied areas, those closer to (non) events seem to have been more sanguine and regarded the whole thing as a cock up and general bloody nuisance.

'
Well, I actually meant 'Hodgson's poor old batman' and I made it very clear I believed another source of strife could well have been the cause of his anxiety. Still, mutual pedantry aside, I think I disagree with your latter point. Cadogan and his peers were "beautifully" welcomed to billets by ladies "thankful to have troops billeted upon them in protection from the invading host".

[Suddery]

Will O, on 11 April 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

There may be a clue to the reason behind his actions in the soldiers records. The soldier in question was easily traceable & there is a good match on ancestry so it is quite possible they exist.

I am making comment on something published and in the public domain. I am aware that the soldier concerned is traceable but wished to use his experience to both examine and draw examples of individuals whose response to mobilization was demonstrably contrary to the received wisdom that 'Kitcheners' volunteers, or indeed conscientious objectors, were the only significant fabric that history has left us of the period. I do not wish to personally trace and publish the name of the batman concerned and neither, seemingly, did Cadogan.  Should anyone wish to do so then that choice is theirs to make.

Many thanks for your posting which has allowed me the latitude to express my rationale.

Suddery

[6th Shropshires]

A K.S.L.I. chap committed Suicide at Tenby on being mobilised, one man out of serval hundreds K.S.L.I. reservist mobilised, I guess by the law of averages you will get the odd man topping himself, sad but a fact of life that some could not cope with the sudden change from civee life to being back under military controll.

Annette

[centurion]

6th Shropshires, on 11 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

A K.S.L.I. chap committed Suicide at Tenby on being mobilised, one man out of serval hundreds K.S.L.I. reservist mobilised, I guess by the law of averages you will get the odd man topping himself, sad but a fact of life that some could not cope with the sudden change from civee life to being back under military controll.

Annette

Still no causal relationship established. With those numbers you might expect to see suicides that were totally unrelated to mobilisation. The suicide and the mobilisation might be purely coincidental, there might be a weak link (eg he was that way inclined and mobilisation merely nudged him) or there might be a strong  causal link. What we cannot do  is tje make the assumption 'a lot of men were mobilised, one of them committed suicide therefore it must be mobilisation that caused it'

[Suddery]

6th Shropshires, on 11 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

A K.S.L.I. chap committed Suicide at Tenby on being mobilised, one man out of serval hundreds K.S.L.I. reservist mobilised, I guess by the law of averages you will get the odd man topping himself, sad but a fact of life that some could not cope with the sudden change from civee life to being back under military controll.

Annette

Interesting parallels here in that your man was a reservist and mine a seasoned yeoman. Your closing observation certainly resonates.

Thanks

Suddery

[Suddery]

centurion, on 11 April 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Still no causal relationship established. With those numbers you might expect to see suicides that were totally unrelated to mobilisation. The suicide and the mobilisation might be purely coincidental, there might be a weak link (eg he was that way inclined and mobilisation merely nudged him) or there might be a strong  causal link. What we cannot do  is tje make the assumption 'a lot of men were mobilised, one of them committed suicide therefore it must be mobilisation that caused it'

What I am trying to stimulate here are examples and anecdotes of the reaction to mobilization.  They will almost certainly not satisfy the exactitudes of a scientific approach because we are talking about the complexities and irrationalities of the human condition. It might be really interesting to see what flows from this link before seeking to quell it with premature analysis. If someone posted that on hearing of mobilization their Grandfather lit his pipe then kicked the dog then I'd be delighted to hear of it.

Regards

Sudddery

[centurion]

Suddery, on 11 April 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

What I am trying to stimulate here are examples and anecdotes of the reaction to mobilization.  They will almost certainly not satisfy the exactitudes of a scientific approach because we are talking about the complexities and irrationalities of the human condition. It might be really interesting to see what flows from this link before seeking to quell it with premature analysis. If someone posted that on hearing of mobilization their Grandfather lit his pipe then kicked the dog then I'd be delighted to hear of it.

Regards

Sudddery

In other words you've already made your mind up what you want hear which is only what agrees with your assumptions

[Suddery]

centurion, on 11 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

In other words you've already made your mind up what you want hear which is only what agrees with your assumptions

I have no assumptions on this matter and can't really see where you're attributing them.

I am seeking anecdotes that illustrate the diversity of response to mobilization, not a pre-judicial debate.

Suddery

[Stoppage Drill]

Suddery, on 11 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

I have no assumptions on this matter and can't really see where you're attributing them.

I am seeking anecdotes that illustrate the diversity of response to mobilization, not a pre-judicial debate.

Suddery

Nonsense. By entitling your thread as you have, you have clearly inferred your belief that the man shot himself in response to being mobilisedWhere is your evidence ?,

[Suddery]

Stoppage Drill, on 11 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Nonsense. By entitling your thread as you have, you have clearly inferred your belief that the man shot himself in response to being mobilisedWhere is your evidence ?,

Before being so forthright perhaps you should actually read each post.

You may choose to read whatever you wish into my comments but inflammatory comments such as 'nonsense' are not useful, especially when they display a failure to consider the actual basis of my premise. This is not about defending the honour of some poor batman, it is about eliciting similar incidents. History is not about making rash insults it is about making coinsidered judgements.

Perhaps next time you will choose to bring something to the table rather than just indulge in empty nay-saying.

Suddery

[bushfighter]

Sudders
The problem is that we do not know the actual words said to the deceased before he rode back to camp.

We only have another person's description of events, which may or may not be accurate but which certainly would have been used at the enquiry and therefore would remain as 'the facts'.

Harry

[Suddery]

Thank you Harry.

This is my last attempt -

Does any one out there have any interesting anecdotes (for that is indeed what they are) about extraordinary responses to mobilization ?

[mandy hall]

When reading the local papers I came across the case of William Charles Smart, reported in the Chichester Observer on 23 September 1914, he had committed suicide at Chichester Barracks on 18^th September 1914.  Whether this was connected to mobilization I don’t know and the report gives no indication. However his service record survives on ancestry showing that he had only joined up on 11^th September 1914 at Brighton.  They also show he had previous service in the Army with 3^rd grenadier Guards.

  The record for this time also survives on FMP showing he originally joined up Oct 1888 and was transferred to the Army reserve in Oct 1895 and then was recalled again in 1899 until 1901 serving in South Africa.

[michaeldr]

Suddery,

returning for just a moment to your original case
It may be relevant to add a little more background info

The order to issue 100 rounds per man was given somewhat urgently by a despatch rider on a motor cycle, who also directed them to the reporting point. There they met the rest of the regiment and  Colonel Jarvis
“who was in a great state of excitement. We were told to wait for further orders. The Colonel told me there was a strong rumour that the Germans had actually landed.”

If the Colonel's state of excitement and his feelings about the strong rumour had been conveyed somehow to the men, then indeed it may have weighed upon some.

Michael

[Suddery]

mandy hall, on 12 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

When reading the local papers I came across the case of William Charles Smart, reported in the Chichester Observer on 23 September 1914, he had committed suicide at Chichester Barracks on 18^th September 1914.  Whether this was connected to mobilization I don't know and the report gives no indication. However his service record survives on ancestry showing that he had only joined up on 11^th September 1914 at Brighton.  They also show he had previous service in the Army with 3^rd grenadier Guards.

  The record for this time also survives on FMP showing he originally joined up Oct 1888 and was transferred to the Army reserve in Oct 1895 and then was recalled again in 1899 until 1901 serving in South Africa.

Another reservist I assume, as with Annette's posting No 9 .

Many thanks for your contribution.

Suddery

[Suddery]

michaeldr, on 12 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Suddery,

returning for just a moment to your original case
It may be relevant to add a little more background info

The order to issue 100 rounds per man was given somewhat urgently by a despatch rider on a motor cycle, who also directed them to the reporting point. There they met the rest of the regiment and  Colonel Jarvis
"who was in a great state of excitement. We were told to wait for further orders. The Colonel told me there was a strong rumour that the Germans had actually landed."

If the Colonel's state of excitement and his feelings about the strong rumour had been conveyed somehow to the men, then indeed it may have weighed upon some.

Michael

It's certainly both relevant and plausible Michael.

Thanks

Suddery

[6th Shropshires]

Suddery, on 11 April 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Interesting parallels here in that your man was a reservist and mine a seasoned yeoman. Your closing observation certainly resonates.

Thanks

Suddery

Hi Suddery

I should have put he was a Army Reservist not a special Reservist, he had done his time and may have served in Beor War. I part agree with with centurion about pre-judging whether a man as topped himself because of being mobilized, other factors may have made them do it, sometimes letters are left to loved ones saying why they did it, while others just do it without anyone knowing why, then we are left to guess work.

Annette

[Martin G]

Suddenly

When I first read the passage I assumed he had committed suicide due to fear of invasion and imminent action. I have researched the Yeomanry war diaries in some considerable detail and I would make a few points:

1. Fear of invasion was very real. The Yeomanry War Diaries and published histories are full of scare stories of imminent invasion during the period in question. The 2nd Mounted Div was based in Suffolk and Norfolk immediately after mobilisation specifically to counter any invasion threat (real or imagined) . They experienced a zeppelin bombing raid In January 1915. Admittedly this is before  (edit: after) the suicide but perhaps illustrates the reality and proximity of the threat of warfare despite being on home defence.. The perceived threat was very real among the Yeomanry, especially in the early months after mobilisation. as one example, the Derbyshire Yeomanry considered they were on active service from 5th Aug 1915 desipte not embarking for overseas service until April 1915.

2. I would not necessarily assume he was a 'seasoned ' TF man. The Yeomanry were very undermanned and had to draft men to make up numbers in Aug 1914. Also there was a considerable amount of weeding out of unfit men and the first months are full of accounts of fairly large numbers being rejected and new drafts coming in. as a batman of an aristocrat Yeoman officer there is a good chance he was a valet in civilian life and worked for the same family before the war. It is also possible that he was 'encouraged' to join up by his employer and felt he could not refuse. It is a possibility worth considering. There is an excellent account of such a man in "Charlie's War" which records the diary of a Derbyshire Yeoman  (TF) who had worked in service as a valet and became a batman to Brig Gen Kenna VC.  There wasn't much seasoned about the Yeomanry or the TF in general in Aug 1914 as diaries and histories show. Training was minimal and generally regarded as inadequate. As the war progressed the TF became very efficient, but there are examples of inadequate training and low morale in some of the TF Divs that went to war in 1915 in Gallipoli for example and they were much criticised by the Regulars and the Kitchener men in private accounts. There is considerable evidence of this in the correspondence with The historian of the Official History of the Gallipoli campaign (Apinall Oglander) That is not to say some TF units did exceptionally well in the early months but I would not describe the TF in 1914 as seasoned by any measure unless they were Boer War veterans. In the defence of the TF they were rather neglected in the initial months as the raising of Kitchener 's Army was prioritised. The (relatively) low standards of the TF in Aug 1914 is arguably one of the reasons why Kitchener decided to build a New Army outside of the Territorial Force structure. A long winded way of highlighting the possibility that he could have been a raw recruit from a fairly sheltered job.

3. At the time Yeomen, being part of the Territorial Force had no obligation to serve overseas, therefore any man fearful of going into action overseas had the choice of not signing the Overseas Service Obligation.  It follows that TF men enlisted before the outbreak of war and during the first months perhaps thought there was an extremely low chance of seeing action unless there was an invasion.. While many were swept up in the patriotic fervour to sign the Overseas Service Obligation, many didn't as the diaries and histories will attest.  

I would suggest ( but clearly this is my conjecture) that he was a frightened man, wound up by constant rumours of imminent  action and having thought it was unlikely that he would have actually see action, he was terrified of the immediate and unexpected prospects of seeing action. Purely my speculation.  MG

[Suddery]

6th Shropshires, on 17 April 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Hi Suddery

I should have put he was a Army Reservist not a special Reservist, he had done his time and may have served in Beor War. I part agree with with centurion about pre-judging whether a man as topped himself because of being mobilized, other factors may have made them do it, sometimes letters are left to loved ones saying why they did it, while others just do it without anyone knowing why, then we are left to guess work.

Annette

"Although I fully appreciate the incident could have been triggered by  some unrelated personal tragedy, it does seem likely to have been at the  very least strongly affected by the imminence of invasion."

I always did partly agree with Centurion it's just that the above passage from my first posting seems to have been consistently overlooked.

Again, thanks for the contribution.

Tim.