13 replies to this topic

[Frank Toogood]

Could anyone tell me what the Bridages Patches look like for the 92, 93 and 94 Brigades within the 31 (Pals) Division please?
Any info gratefully received.

Thanks,
Frank

[Suddery]

92nd - Laterally divided square. Top half white,  bottom red.

93rd - Diagonally divided square. Division from top right to bottom left corner. Left side white, right side red.

94th - Laterally divided square. Top half red, bottom half white.

These battle patched were worn centre back towards the neck.

Further badges were worn on the upper arm to indicate battalions within brigades but I'm not too sure of these.

Hope this is of some help and welcome to the Forum.

Suddery

[Frank Toogood]

That was quick!

Many thanks,
Frank

[polarbear]

Blimey, I was just about to ask the same question! Could you tell me when they where worn i.e. from what date if known?

Many thanks
Gary

[Suddery]

polarbear, on 29 April 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Blimey, I was just about to ask the same question! Could you tell me when they where worn i.e. from what date if known?

Many thanks
Gary

Hi Gary,

Not so straightforward this. Some say (never a good way to start a search for facts) that the New Army divisions adopted and contrived these battle patches prior to embarkation on the basis that they would be a quick and easy way of being identified in the fury of battle and also to provide some semblence of propriety on divisional materiel. Presumably they also provided some sense of esprit de corps. Divisional generals quite often got involved and chose punning designs e.g. General Bulfin, 60th Division, chose a 'Bee' as a representation of B for Bulfin and also as some kind of homage to Napoleon Bonaparte (bizarre. I know). Obviously the 'Red and White' of the 31st referred to the York and Lancaster roses. The crossed roses were their second device the original being what I can only describe as a 'triangle within parallel lines'. I'm afraid I have no idea what this represents. It does seem that Divisional signage was allowed to develop in a rapid timescale unlike most other military emblems.

Based on the above it seems likely that the 31st adopted their 'Battle Patches' close to 7th December 1915, just prior to embarkation for Egypt. Purely conjecture this, but may be of some help.  I have no idea if a search through diaries might help but I somehow doubt "Monday, adopted new divisional signs" is the sort of entry we can hope to be revealed.

Finally a fact others might be able to assist with. In the excellently illustrated 'British Battle Insignia by Mike Chappell (pub Osprey isbn 978-0-85045-727-8) Chappell states,

"The insecure practice of painting the unit designation in plain language on the sides of vehicles and on signboards surprisingly remained in force until 1916 when orders were issued to the effect that divisions would select a device, mark or sign to be painted on all transport as a security measure"

This date or order I do not know but would be very interested to find out.

Regards

Suddery

[polarbear]

Suddery,
Many thanks for that fast reply. Your quite correct in that its rather difficult is ascertaining how New army units worked, and with 31st Div the patch system would seem likely to be brought into place when they were sent to east to Egypt.

However...  photos of 18 DLI  on board ship reroute to the France from Egypt clearly  don't show (as far as I know) any sign of rear brigade patches.
I suspect the implantation was either just before or after 1st July '16 - cannot prove it though.

At some point as you say regt isle had regimental markings - we have evidence for 18 DLI having a dark green oblong with a smaller red oblong set within (very LI colours..)
but again , no firm evidence for date of issue etc,

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•  20133.jpg   41.95K   2 downloads

[Retlaw]

Suddery, on 29 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Hi Gary,

Not so straightforward this. Some say (never a good way to start a search for facts) that the New Army divisions adopted and contrived these battle patches prior to embarkation on the basis that they would be a quick and easy way of being identified in the fury of battle and also to provide some semblence of propriety on divisional materiel. Presumably they also provided some sense of esprit de corps. Divisional generals quite often got involved and chose punning designs e.g. General Bulfin, 60th Division, chose a 'Bee' as a representation of B for Bulfin and also as some kind of homage to Napoleon Bonaparte (bizarre. I know). Obviously the 'Red and White' of the 31st referred to the York and Lancaster roses. The crossed roses were their second device the original being what I can only describe as a 'triangle within parallel lines'. I'm afraid I have no idea what this represents. It does seem that Divisional signage was allowed to develop in a rapid timescale unlike most other military emblems.

Based on the above it seems likely that the 31st adopted their 'Battle Patches' close to 7th December 1915, just prior to embarkation for Egypt. Purely conjecture this, but may be of some help.  I have no idea if a search through diaries might help but I somehow doubt "Monday, adopted new divisional signs" is the sort of entry we can hope to be revealed.

Finally a fact others might be able to assist with. In the excellently illustrated 'British Battle Insignia by Mike Chappell (pub Osprey isbn 978-0-85045-727-8) Chappell states,

"The insecure practice of painting the unit designation in plain language on the sides of vehicles and on signboards surprisingly remained in force until 1916 when orders were issued to the effect that divisions would select a device, mark or sign to be painted on all transport as a security measure"

This date or order I do not know but would be very interested to find out.

Regards

Suddery

There is no mention in the 11th East Lancs War Diaries of Battle Patches.
The first entry in what remains of the 11ths War Diary. 20-12-15 At Sea.
That is from a typed copy, the original hand writen one is missing.

Retlaw.

Just had a look through the William Turner Collection of Accrington Pals, and my own collection,
can't see shoulder flashes on any of them, some photo's of other East Lancs men, show
some with a diamond with a white 5.

[Faithful]

For interest, Captain (later Lieutenant-Colonel) Lowe of 18DLI states that at Fovant Camp (October/November 1915)
'About this time the Divisional, Brigade and Regimental patches were provided, ours being a patch of Durham green flannel two and a half inches long by
one inch wide with a scarlet centre of one and a half inches by half an inch : one was worn on each shoulder half an inch below the shoulder-strap'.
Lieutenant-Colonel W.D.Lowe, War History of the 18th (S) Battalion Durham Light Infantry, (OUP, 1920) p.14

[Suddery]

That's a really useful piece of information.

According To Brig James (British Regiments) it was around this time (15.8.15) the the War Office assumed command of the Battalion from the raising committee. As with other 31st Div Battalions they embarked from Liverpool to Egypt on 6.12.15 and so Col Lowe confirms that for this Battalion in particular, patches were issued shortly before embarkation as I suggested.

Many thanks

Suddery

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi,

Here are two men of 18/DLI in Egypt one has the Brigade patch on the left of his helmet the second man has it on the right.

In France the Brigade patch was worn on the back below the collar, The LTMB wore it with a bomb stiched on. There was an example in the Regimental Archives. 2" X 2".

Leeds Pals one red bar on the shoulder ----------
1st Bradford two red bars -----------
                          -----------
2nd Bradford three red bars ---------
                            ---------
                            ---------

1st Hull Pals I
2nd Hull      II
3rd Hull      III
4th Hull      IV

Accrington Red Circle
Sheffield  Green Circle
1st Barnsley Yellow Circle
2nd Barnsley Blue Circle

Pioneer Battalion Black Inverted Triangle


John

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[kevin]

Leeds Pals on HM Transport on way from Eygpt to France.
Showing Patch centre back,
 H M Transport leaving Eygpt (360 x 289).jpg   37.79K   4 downloads

Regards as always Kevin

[Suddery]

Tyneside Chinaman, on 02 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Hi,

Here are two men of 18/DLI in Egypt one has the Brigade patch on the left of his helmet the second man has it on the right.

In France the Brigade patch was worn on the back below the collar, The LTMB wore it with a bomb stiched on. There was an example in the Regimental Archives. 2" X 2".

Leeds Pals one red bar on the shoulder ----------
1st Bradford two red bars -----------
                          -----------
2nd Bradford three red bars ---------
                            ---------
                            ---------

1st Hull Pals I
2nd Hull      II
3rd Hull      III
4th Hull      IV

Accrington Red Circle
Sheffield  Green Circle
1st Barnsley Yellow Circle
2nd Barnsley Blue Circle

Pioneer Battalion Black Inverted Triangle


John

The LTMB device is new to me...thanks for such an interesting post,John, and to Kevin for a great photo.
Suddery

[polarbear]

Morning all,
Sorry have not replied sooner as "inter web" thing down due to emery action (BT)  - wire cut it seems...

Anyway a big thank you to all for the posts and  the photos. I say this eating a modest ration of humble pie ..  that I never saw the patches in the photos in your book John, why I have no idea, save quality of the subject and they are so small; every day a school day as they say.

Without doubt we now have a better idea of the probable look of 31st Div/18 DLL on their return to the western front. In view of the pics of the 18 DLI chaps with patches on their sun helmets, I wonder if this practise was echoed on their helmets covers on Brodie's?

Once again thanks gentleman, the power of knowledge within the forum is superb

Best wishes
Gary

[Suddery]

Picked this up at a Postcard Fair yesterday.

Looks to be the original 31st Divisional insignia on a Royal Engineer - one of an RE group taken in front of hutment.

Must say 'emery' action seems a particularly fiendish form of attack, even by B.T standards.

Suddery

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•  31div.jpg   19.42K   6 downloads