87 replies to this topic

[MichaelBully]

That's great Trajan, I will PM you with my E mail address. Thanks . Yes have wondered myself what Cheesman may have gone to achieve in the world of history  had he survived the Great War. Regards Michael Bully.

TRAJAN, on 24 April 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

I was completely wrong about where I had seen an obituary for GLC - it was in the Classical Review, 29 (Nov. 1915). 222-223, by F.Haverfield. A quick glance suggests that the one in the Journal of Roman Studies, 5 (1915), 147-148, also by Haverfield, is identical. The story is, BTW, that Haverfield, the leading British expert on Latin inscriptions, thought of GLC as his most worthy potential successor... High praise indeed...

Let me know if you would like a copy - I have a PDF of the Classical Review obit., but it is too big for the GWF attachment system...

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

Thank you for the extra information -much appreciated.

I didn't know about 36 Medina VIllas. According to my notes from looking at the information held at the Hove Library Roll of Honour archive, Cheesman's family lived at 24 Ventnor Villas, Hove when he was born in 1884. At the time of Cheesman's death in 1915, his mother gives her address as 15 Albany Villas, Hove.

I am not sure what the procedure is for ordering photographs from the Hove Library Roll of Honour archive, I will ask next time I am there.

With best wishes

Michael Bully

EDIT- Should just point out that Cheesman's mother completed these details in 1919, regarding her son's death in 1915,  15 Albany Villas was her address in 1919, but realise that can't assume that the family lived there in 1915.  

maricourt, on 23 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Hello Michael & Trajan

The reference to Cheesman's letters comes from Reginald Pound's book "The Lost Generation", Chapter 11 - "A Professor's Proud Remembrance".  [Professor Gilbert Murray].  An obit of GLC and a photograph can be found in "Wykemists who Died in the Great War".  A G Heath and AD Gillespie both mention Cheesman in their letters [both of these men were dead by the end of 1915, too].  Cheesman was also a friend of Harold Edward Pope [KIA 1918] and his brother, Hugh Rose Pope - killed in a climbing accident 1912.

I'd be very interested in a photograph and the obituary, too!

Cheesman's father lived [at some time] at 36 Medina Villas, Hove - if that is of any interest!

A very interesting thread.

Regards ... Maricourt

[maricourt]

Many thanks Trajan for The Classical Review obit of GLC - much appreciated.


Trajan and Michael - I will pass on any further Cheesman research as I progress.


Regards ... Maricourt

[TRAJAN]

Maricourt, Michael,

Can I be a tad lazy? I have never tried to search where any GW casualty is buried and so I don't really known where/how to begin such a search, so do you know if GLC has a known grave and if so where? I'd greatly appreciate the information.

Trajan

[michaeldr]

He has no known grave and is therefore commemorated on the Helles Memorial: see the first link in post #1

[TRAJAN]

michaeldr, on 25 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

... He has no known grave and is therefore commemorated on the Helles Memorial: see the first link in post #1

Thank you Michaeldr. Not so much totally lazy really - more a case of limited opportunities / time during the week to check things on GWF through properly while at work or when at home!

Trajan

PS: Late parenthood... Hmmm... has very many nice aspects to it - but forget leisure time!!!

PPS: looking back at the map and photo in the above posts, that really gives me the creeps... Did the top powers that were involved seriously not read a map and understand the topography involved there before the Hants. went not over the top but up the hill?

[michaeldr]

I walked down Rhododendron Ridge in 2010 – there are some pics on this thread
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=145148
The view which the Turks had over the battlefield was tremendous – occupying the height is indeed a huge advantage

My personal take on this attack in very brief and v. basic terms is,
the allies failed to gain early access to the high ground because after months of neglect (there was a war on) the tracks were so overgrown that engineers had to be brought in at one stage to clear a path. The other factor worth mentioning is that most of the battalions attacking Sari Bair were worn out with fatigue and sickness after several months in the line with little or no respite.

But its well worth examining this in more detail, especially if you intend to visit

[TRAJAN]

michaeldr, on 25 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

...I walked down Rhododendron Ridge in 2010 – there are some pics on this thread
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=145148 The view which the Turks had over the battlefield was tremendous – occupying the height is indeed a huge advantage...

Thank you Michael, I had a quick and enjoyable look through your photo's, and couldn't help but think what a slog going up that slope would be under the best of conditions - and not much better going down in a bayonet charge! Incidentally, the only Gallipoli literature I have is Taylor and Cupper, Gallipoli: a battlefield guide (1989), which does give a brief account of what happened 9th-10th August (p.p. 199-200), and that, along with your references in post 3, etc., has helped me learn a bit more about events at the time.

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

As you all probably have gathered, my lack of knowledge regarding Gallipoli is quite evident. Are there any very basic books about Gallipoli which serve as an introduction ? Also which books have the best accounts about 10th August 1915 ?  Thanks, Michael Bully

TRAJAN, on 26 April 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Thank you Michael, I had a quick and enjoyable look through your photo's, and couldn't help but think what a slog going up that slope would be under the best of conditions - and not much better going down in a bayonet charge! Incidentally, the only Gallipoli literature I have is Taylor and Cupper, Gallipoli: a battlefield guide (1989), which does give a brief account of what happened 9th-10th August (p.p. 199-200), and that, along with your references in post 3, etc., has helped me learn a bit more about events at the time.

Trajan

[michaeldr]

Killing two birds with one stone might be a good idea here;
Though somewhat dated now (1965) Robert Rhodes James' 'Gallipoli' will give you an overview of the whole campaign
and his chapter 11, The Fight for Sari Bair, is very detailed, amounting to about 40 pages. His 'beloved Uncle Roy' was badly wounded in this action and this may account for his detail here.

[TRAJAN]

michaeldr, on 27 April 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

... Killing two birds with one stone might be a good idea here... Robert Rhodes James' 'Gallipoli' ... and his chapter 11, The Fight for Sari Bair, is very detailed, amounting to about 40 pages...

Thanks michaeldr. The Univ library catalogue has the Turkish version (Gelibolu harekatı), but no English one, although it does have in English Grand strategy: Gallipoli, James, Robert Rhodes [1989]. so I'll check that to begin with.

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

Thank you Michael DR , will order the Robert Rhodes James' book.

I was at The British Library yesterday, managed to have a look at 'The Lost Generation' by Reginald Pound. This book has a few paragrahps on George Cheesman's death based on a work titled 'Letters from Flanders' by A D Gillespie.

Regards.
Michael Bully

[seaJane]

Two mentions in: The letters of J.E. Flecker to Frank Savery. London: Beaumont Press, 1926.

    Others themselves did not survive, such as Rupert Brooke and a very old Oxford friend, Mr Lennard Cheesman, who was killed in the Dardanelles. ' (Foreword) [the spelling error is as printed, but is found corrected in the preface to Some letters from abroad of James Elroy Flecker, London: Heinemann, 1930, where the sentence is otherwise repeated.]

    Davos, 27 July 1914 - I am sending you a pamphlet, sent me by Cheeseman [sic], by one Knox of Oxford. [Knox = Ronald Arbuthnott, later Monsignor Ronald, Knox]. (p.91)

    Three mentions in: Hodgson, Geraldine. The life of James Elroy Flecker from letters and materials provided by his mother. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1925.

    Another Oxford friend, Leonard Cheesman, a Winchester boy, and afterwards a fellow of New  College, was killed in the war. His death was an irreparable loss to Flecker". (p.65) [Second sentence is rubbish, as Flecker died in January 1915 and Cheesman in August, some 7 months later.]

    Though the place [Locarno, April 1914] did not suit him physically, he was cheered by visits from his old friend Mr Cheesman. (p.211)

    I rather fear, I have no proof, that English literary men are too superior to fight. I wish I knew. I believe Cheesman has gone. [footnote: Flecker's surmise was correct. Mr Cheesman was killed in the War. Flecker wrote this letter on October 31st [1914]. (p.220) ["gone" presumably means gone to war, rather than died.]

PS: Michael, Archives at New College Oxford, details here: http://www.new.ox.ac...at-new-college.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks Jane for these further references. Appreciated.  

Looking back over this thread, and the mention of James Elroy Flecker (who died in 1915), yes it is worth stressing that Flecker is not honoured as amongst the Great War Dead. Neither does he get recognised as a 'war poet'. Having a look at the anthology of his work on WWW the Great War did start to feature in his last poems

http://www.archive.o...ecuoft_djvu.txt

Particularly noticed 'The Burial in England' on page 235 of the above.

I hope to get to the NA next week to look at Cheesman's service records. Should be able to carry on looking for articles/obituaries in local papers extremely soon.  Will report back  Best wishes, Michael Bully

[seaJane]

Hi Michael,

Although Flecker was, you might say, "watching" the outbreak and progress of the Great War, and debating it with Frank Savery, as is evident from many of the later letters, he was too ill with consumption to take any active part.

"The old warship ablaze" also refers to the war http://archive.org/s...flec#page/246/.

I have been trying to remember if I have ever met the librarian at New College and am not at all sure (certainly haven't met the archivist) - but if you'd find it useful I can try to facilitate contact with her.

sJ

[MichaelBully]

Hello Jane

Yes that seems to be a summary of Flecker's position in 1914.  
Contact with New  College librarian sounds if it would be useful. Appreciated indeed.

I have been back to the Brighton History Centre to look at newspapers immediately after Cheesman's death on 10th August 1915, but there do not seem to be any obituaries or coverage of his death. Perhaps he was not counted as having much of a local connection any longer, being educated at Winchester and New College, then lecturing there.
Could be that his death was overshadowed - as far as Sussex newspapers were concerned- by all the other events going at the time.
Alternatively they be there, but I haven't found them.

With best wishes

Michael  Bully

seaJane, on 01 May 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Hi Michael,

Although Flecker was, you might say, "watching" the outbreak and progress of the Great War, and debating it with Frank Savery, as is evident from many of the later letters, he was too ill with consumption to take any active part.

"The old warship ablaze" also refers to the war http://archive.org/s...flec#page/246/.

I have been trying to remember if I have ever met the librarian at New College and am not at all sure (certainly haven't met the archivist) - but if you'd find it useful I can try to facilitate contact with her.

sJ

[michaeldr]

I have been back to the Brighton History Centre to look at newspapers immediately after Cheesman's death on 10th August 1915,

Just a thought, but, under the circumstances of the August battles, it may have taken some time for the news of his death to get back to the UK

[MichaelBully]

Indeed Michael . Have got to the end of August 1915 so far .
I intend to go to the National Archives and read Cheesman's service records next week. See if it took some time for Cheesman's death to be accepted and perhaps local newspaper coverage was later ?
It is possible that his parents decided that they did not necessarily want local newspaper interest where they lived. As long as their son's achievements were recognised in academic circles, perhaps this was sufficient for them ?
Regards
Michael Bully

michaeldr, on 03 May 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I have been back to the Brighton History Centre to look at newspapers immediately after Cheesman's death on 10th August 1915,

Just a thought, but, under the circumstances of the August battles, it may have taken some time for the news of his death to get back to the UK

[MichaelBully]

Have returned to Brighton History Centre and gone through local newspapers for September 1915, but nothing found on George Cheesman's death. I am thinking again on the lines that his local connection was considered to be slight by 1915; the other consideration is that the Royal Sussex were at Gallipoli and this was considered to be more of interest to this district.
And  with Cheesman's body not being found, perhaps the newspapers decided that was less significance then those known casualties.
This whole topic as got me thinking how did local newspapers actually find out casualties, especially those from Gallipoli ?

[seaJane]

With regard to the last, I have seen "Provincial papers please copy" in several contemporary Times items.

[MichaelBully]

Interesting, thank you Jane, might launch a separate thread on this topic.

Michael d r, thank you again for the maps, and photo. I have been trying to do some background reading and watching documentaries on You Tube about Gallipoli to put the information in context as it were.

Regards, Michael Bully

seaJane, on 05 May 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

With regard to the last, I have seen "Provincial papers please copy" in several contemporary Times items.

[michaeldr]

I have been looking again at the War Diary [NA ref  WO 95/4296 – a cheap down-load as I remember] and there is a letter there dated 19.1.31, addressed to the Official Historian from Lt-Col W. D. Bewsher DSO regarding the 10th August at ANZAC
“Thank you very much for sending me Chapter XXVI of the Official History of Gallipoli Vol. II.
You will have read my narrative and notes on 8th-10th August in Cowland's Book (10th and 12th Battns. Hampshire Regiment) and I have nothing to add to that.”

He is referring to  “The 10th and 12th Battalions The Hampshire Regiment 1914-1918” by W. S. Cowland, pub. 1930 by Warren & Sons.
This goes for £85 via ABE and much more on Amazon, so it will be worth checking a library first to see if it has any useful info on Cheesman

[TRAJAN]

Thanks for that ref. Michael - our univ. librarian is a historian by training and is often sympathetic to my requests so I'll see what I can do - but it will probably take some time...

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

And thank you from me as weel Michael !  I have a reader's pass for the British Library so might try there. Also had thought about visiting the Royal Hampshire regiment archives in Winchester.

TRAJAN, on 06 May 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Thanks for that ref. Michael - our univ. librarian is a historian by training and is often sympathetic to my requests so I'll see what I can do - but it will probably take some time...

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

Just back from London. Looked at George Cheesman's military service records at the National Archive WO339/11797.  A little on the sparse side

1. Confirmed date of birth September 14th 1884, father George Cheesman (solicitor) , mother Mary Salisbury Cheesman , formerly Tapham, and address at time of birth was 26 Ventnor Villas,  ( copy of birth certificate was there)

2. Cheesman gave address as 'New College , Oxford' when joining up on 14th August 1914. In cadet corps in Winchester , and OUV  ( I take that to mean Oxford University Volunteers)
States that speaks French, German, Italian, Modern Greek, and some 'Servian'. Can not ride a horse , not been employed in any government department. unmarried and of pure European descent.
A member of military education committee recommended him for a commission.

3. His father George Cheesman gave his address as' 70 Ship Street, Brighton ' ( but this seems to have been his law company's address. George Cheeman's effects were to be sent to 13 Wilbury Gardens, Hove.)

4. George Cheeman senior was notified by telegram on 11th September 1915 of his son's death ( i.e. one month and one day afterwards). Telegram seems to have been despatched from Alexandria.

5. The rest of the records are mainly about outstanding monies owed to George Cheesman (senior) as next of kin : George Cheesman died intestate...but so many officers' records I have seen suggest that this was by no means unusual. However, he seemed to have had a life assurance policy, George Cheesman ( senior) wrote to War Office  maintaining that he needed more evidence of his son's death in regard to this policy stating that the company required  " a war office certificate " and also a letter "from some one who was with the deceased when he was killed or from someone who may have seen his body after death".  George Cheesman (senior) stated that a "brother officer" had told him that it was impossible to recover the body owing to a heavy counter attack.
So it would seem that George Cheesman was killed in action in front of his own men as it were; but we have to make allowances for (i) confusion in the heat of the battle and (ii) sometimes relatives being told a more embelished version of events in order to spare them even more  distress.
The War Office responded on 6th October 1915 by issuing a death certificate confirming that George Cheesman was killed in action and maintaining that this was sufficient.

6. There is also a letter from a company of solicitors stating that George Cheesman's will came to £807, 8s. 2d. and asking for exemption from death duties : Something that I have seen in other War Service records.

If anyone is interested in the records, it is possible to order a print out or a digital scan from the National Archives.

-Michael Bully