34 replies to this topic

[centurion]

nils d, on 27 April 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Centurion
One cant class the observers cockpit as "roomy",it was a bit cramped otherwise Insall would fix his instruments to the cockpit rim rather than the poor alternative of his lower limbs.That was quite a shallow cockpit and not as spacious as the FE2 gunners position.The Vickers cockpit doesnt look half as safe to me.

Having seen the cockpit in the Vickers FB5 rebuilt replica it was not cramped

[nils d]

centurion, on 27 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Having seen the cockpit in the Vickers FB5 rebuilt replica it was not cramped

So why would the observer strap instruments to his leg rather than fix them to the cockpit rim if it was that roomy?
l have a mental picture of the pilot telling Insall that his altimeter had gone bust so lnsall has to stick his leg out of the cockpit so that the pilot can gauge his height.
On a more serious level l have also seen the replica Vickers FB5 and the FE2b rebuild so l know how "roomy" the nacelles appear to be.The Vickers doesnt look to have a spacious area for the observer at all.ln a number of  photos it looks like the pilot sits well down out of the slipstream while the passenger sits more upright , suggesting  a Easyjet standard of legroom.
Neither one of us has flown in a FB5 [the acid test] or even sat in the cockpit to add weight to our impressions ,but l can honestly say that my first impression of the Vickers replica was to place the Vickers front cockpit at number one on my list of least welcoming nacelle front seats.

[Lyffe]

I've not seen the Hendon replica, but I'd go along with you Nils if the attached photo of the FE2b cockpit is anything to go by.  Remembering the thick clothing an observer would wear to give some protection from the elements, to say nothing of the additional paraphernalia such as spare ammunition drums, maps (or a map board) and camera, I can't imagine those who had to sit in it would call the cockpit 'roomy'.

As an aside the man I'm researching recorded a temperature of 15F (-9C) at 6000 ft on 8 March 1916 which, assuming the FB5 was flying at 55-60 mph, equates to a wind chill temperature of -31F or -35C - little wonder Insall described it as akin to sitting unprotected in the face of an Arctic gale.

Attached Files

•  RAF FE2b obs seatmin.jpg   77.86K   0 downloads

[centurion]

nils d, on 29 April 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

So why would the observer strap instruments to his leg rather than fix them to the cockpit rim if it was that roomy?
l have a mental picture of the pilot telling Insall that his altimeter had gone bust so lnsall has to stick his leg out of the cockpit so that the pilot can gauge his height.
On a more serious level l have also seen the replica Vickers FB5 and the FE2b rebuild so l know how "roomy" the nacelles appear to be.The Vickers doesnt look to have a spacious area for the observer at all.ln a number of  photos it looks like the pilot sits well down out of the slipstream while the passenger sits more upright , suggesting  a Easyjet standard of legroom.
Neither one of us has flown in a FB5 [the acid test] or even sat in the cockpit to add weight to our impressions ,but l can honestly say that my first impression of the Vickers replica was to place the Vickers front cockpit at number one on my list of least welcoming nacelle front seats.

I never said it was comfortable - however I think you exaggerate -  this guy is sitting fairly low and appears to have leg room.

 01a.jpg   38.32K   0 downloads


Now how does he strap his instrument to the combing without either slitting fabric or punching holes in ply ? - do tell  

[nils d]

Lyffe, on 29 April 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

I've not seen the Hendon replica, but I'd go along with you Nils if the attached photo of the FE2b cockpit is anything to go by.  Remembering the thick clothing an observer would wear to give some protection from the elements, to say nothing of the additional paraphernalia such as spare ammunition drums, maps (or a map board) and camera, I can't imagine those who had to sit in it would call the cockpit 'roomy'.

As an aside the man I'm researching recorded a temperature of 15F (-9C) at 6000 ft on 8 March 1916 which, assuming the FB5 was flying at 55-60 mph, equates to a wind chill temperature of -31F or -35C - little wonder Insall described it as akin to sitting unprotected in the face of an Arctic gale.

The FE2 had more room than the Vickers.McCudden, when he was a FE2 pilot,, gave his two mechanics a joy-ride together,
an impossible feat for a Vickers ground crew.Even so these were cold veiwing platforms and not suitable for cat-swinging.

[Lyffe]

Not sure to whom your post is directed Centurion, but the photo is unconvincing.  It's been taken looking upwards from considerably below the rim of the cockpit; had it been taken level with the cockpit rim the impression would have been considerably different.  My newly attached photo is not a perfect example, but if the observer was seated I'm pretty sure much of his upper body above the waist would be exposed.

So far as my man's instruments are concerned there were just two, a thermometer and altimeter.  I'm happy he was using a wristlet altimeter in one form or another, which leaves the thermometer.  He described this as being fully exposed to the wind which leaves just one position where it could be easily read - the bottom of the Lewis gun mounting. It would not interfere with the gun's action and in the event of the thermometer being broken it would be cheap enough to replace.

Fortunately Health & Safety wasn't around to raise concerns about the thermometer's mercury!

Attached Files

•  fe2b1024mod.jpg   91.46K   0 downloads

[nils d]

centurion, on 29 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I never said it was comfortable - however I think you exaggerate -  this guy is sitting fairly low and appears to have leg room.
we differ in intrepratation even after viewing the same plane in person.
01a.jpg


Now how does he strap his instrument to the combing without either slitting fabric or punching holes in ply ? - do tell  

l never said he did.As theres no room how could he?Besides a few self tappers into plywood isnt a major operation.
Actually wheres the ply here?The obs seat and floor were ply but the frame was tubular steel and the nose was sheet metal.
Lets get the final word on the so-called roomy cockpit shall we? l quote A J Insall  himself.

seated hunched in the front crib of a Vickers Fighter and
  the Brigadier then asked me how l managed  to work the Lewis gun while ensconced,all folded up as he had found himself to be ,in a thing the size of a baby's crib with no room in which ,as he put it,'to blow your bloody nose'


So Centurion ,are you convinced yet?

[MikeMeech]

Hi All

Reference the wearing of 'wrist' equipment by flyers.  In the TNA is the following document - 'Training Manual, RFC. Pt.II (Provisional)1915, in Chapter III 'Observation and Communication', there is the following:

"(d) Wrist Watch. - The watch should be fitted with a strap sufficiently long to buckle round the arm outside the leather coat.
(e) Wrist Compass. - A wrist compass is very useful, even though in some types of machines it is possible for the observer to see the pilot's instruments. It should be fitted with a strap long enough to buckle on the arm over leather clothing."

I hope it is of interest.

Mike

[Lyffe]

Thank you Mike.  I started the thread because I found Insall's description of his aneroid being strapped to his instep rather strange - although I'll willingly admit I'd not previously given much thought to how observers measured altitude in the poorly equipped cockpits of early aeroplanes - especially the pusher models.

I've just been advised by the RAF Museum that it holds a number of examples of wristlet altimeters, photographs I now have. Your description of Wrist Compasses and Watches could easily include altimeters, Mike, .  The faces of the aneroids were about the size of a pocket watch in diameter, and the strong leather strap about the same width as that of a modern wristwatch - but obviously longer..

I've seen two models, one that could be used up to 10000 ft altitude, the other to 15000 ft.  They were graduated in either 100 or 200 ft intervals, but I'd suggest they would have been pretty difficult to read strapped to an instep.

I'm now left very much with the feeling that Insall's description was something of a red herring, and that if he strapped the instrument to his instep it was simply a personal foible.

My thanks to all who have replied to my query.

Brian

[alex revell]

This doesn't add very much, I know, but many years ago I met and interviewd Col. E Galley, who flew with 22 and 56 Sqdns -  as a an observer in 22 and a pilot in 56. He showed me his wristlet aneroid which he used while an observer with 22 Sqdn. To the best of my recollection, it was as shown in the photo posted by John.
Alex