Jump to content


Remembered Today:

Photo

Algernon: 2nd Lieut Royal Fusiliers.


23 replies to this topic

#1 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

Can we try and identify this officer from the few scant clues that we have? I am not 100% sure that he is a Great War officer as he is not wearing cuff rank.

He is wearing a Fusiliers shoulder title and I am leaning towards it being Royal Fusiliers rather than Northumberland Fusiliers because of the shape of the letter to the left of the grenade. The close up of the button is also more like the Royal Fusiliers button as it appears to have a circular blank space around its edge. The photograph is signed: "yours Algy", which I take to be a shortened version of Algernon.

I can find only two officers in the Royal Fusiliers during the Great War with the name Algernon. They are:

Algernon Oswald Coggin, who was killed in action on 27th October 1916, aged 24. He was the son of Edith Coggin, of 247, Neville Road, Forest Gate, London.

And,

Algernon Horace Jackson who was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in October 1914 and who arrived in France on 16th November, 1915. His home address is listed on his medal card as 164 Gwyder Street, Cambridge.

All well and good except that the photograph was framed in Belfast and I can find no link between either of these two officers and Belfast or indeed the Royal Fusiliers and Belfast. There were no Officer Cadet Battalions based there either.

Am I barking up the wrong tree or is the photograph of one of the two men that I have mentioned?

Attached Files

  • Attached File  Algy.JPG   68.29KB   1 downloads


#2 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:20 PM

Pictures.

Attached Files



#3 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

Picture framer's label.

Attached Files



#4 centurion

centurion

    General

  • Old Sweats
  • 23,595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Marches
  • Interests:Military history, science fiction

Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

Pardon me for butting into a serious discussion - but if his surname is Moncrieff then his real name is Earnest :devilgrin: He certainly has the hauteur that Lady Bracknell would approve of.

#5 IPT

IPT

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

I only mention 2nd Lt Algernon Lawrence Berry, RF to say that it's not him.

Algernon George Sumner Goodman was probably too old (Jan 1884)

He's certainly not Algernon Foulkes-Attwood.


There's also;

2nd Lt Norman Algernon Brown (died 1/3/1919)

#6 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:22 PM

Pardon me for butting into a serious discussion - but if his surname is Moncrieff then his real name is Earnest :devilgrin: He certainly has the hauteur that Lady Bracknell would approve of.


Everybody's clever nowadays.

#7 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:40 PM

I only mention 2nd Lt Algernon Lawrence Berry, RF to say that it's not him.

Algernon George Sumner Goodman was probably too old (Jan 1884)

He's certainly not Algernon Foulkes-Attwood.


There's also;

2nd Lt Norman Algernon Brown (died 1/3/1919)


Where are these names coming from as I cannot find medal index cards for them?

#8 IPT

IPT

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:12 PM

My computer isn't speaking to the NA website at the moment, so I can't find them on there. The first three all have medal cards on Ancestry, but i'd say they can be ruled out. I found pictures of Berry and Attwood and they were not him. AGS Goodman had previous service numbers of 383 (19th RF) and 61206 (53rd RF) and was commissioned 18/6/1916 RF. (So aged 32 - too old).

If you enter "royal fusiliers" "algernon" into Google image search, you'll see photos which eliminate a few of them.

I also looked on the 1911 Irish census for Algernons, but the military men were too old, and I couldn't find MICs for the younger men.

As a long shot, there's Norman Algernon Brown, born 1898 Biggleswade, Beds., where's he's also buried. He's on SDGW as 2nd Lt 4th RF.
LG Oct 1917- http://www.london-ga.../10484/page.pdf He may not have a medal card because he mightn't have gone abroad.

#9 IPT

IPT

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:31 PM

There was a 2nd Lt William Algie DSO, Northumberland Fusiliers. Commissioned 26/6/1916 into the RF, and later Captain in the RAF.


EDIT: On second thoughts. our boy looks far too nice for this kind of thing;

London Gazette -26th March 1917.

“Temp. 2nd Lt
William Algie
North’d Fus. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during a Trench Raid on the enemy’s trenches. he led the assaulting party with great dash and inflicted many casualties on the enemy. He himself shot eight of the enemy with his revolver. Later he skilfully withdrew his party under heavy fire and assisted to bring in the wounded.” The citation refers to a trench raid South East of Armentiers on the night of the 11th February 1917. The 25th Bn under the command of Lt Col Perch were detailed for the large Trench Raid and a force of 12 Officers and 257 Other Ranks were amassed and split into four Companies. 2nd Lt Algie was assigned as seconded in command to C Company. As the group moved out over no mans land they came under heavy German fire with two companies being held up. C Coy were desperately looking for the break in the wire when they were subjected to heavy machine gun fire. Lt Col Perch, who had attached himself to C Coy, charged forward leading his men towards the enemy lines Algie was right beside him and they quickly took the enemy front line. 2nd Lt Algie then pulled together a support line party and with revolver to hand charged up the trench, killing seven German soldiers and then proceeded to throw bombs, securing the Trench he then supervised his party blowing up an ammunition dump and a bombing HQ. He then proceed back to the old German front line held by Lt Col Perch with seven German Prisoners, including two Officers at this point an incident happened resulting in Algie killing one of the Officers. The order to withdraw back to the British Line was given and Algie successfully lead his party and prisoners back across no mans land. Although casualties were high, the raid was classified as a great success with messages of congratulations coming down from HQ and on the 25th February came the announcement of the award of the DSO to 2nd Lt Algie and his Commanding Officer Lt Col Perch. other Officers received the MC. Second Lieutenant William Algie a pre war Trooper of the 4th Dragoon Guards landed in France on the 17th December 1914. He was commissioned into the New Army on the 2nd July 1916 and posted to the 25th 2nd Tyneside Battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers who proceeded to France in that month. In May 1917 Algie was successful in a Transfer to the RFC and after a short Observer course was posted to 25 Squadron operating in France with the DH4 two seater aircraft by the end of May. With his regular pilot 2nd Lt Hancock flew a number of Photo Recce, Bombing and Special Operational Flights. On a number of occasions they were heavy engaged by German scouts, as on the 18th August 1917 when attached by 5 German scouts, Algie fired a drum into one of them, that turned and immediately span uncontrolled towards the ground. Other reports show up to 8 enemy scouts at a time engaging the aircraft of 25 Squadron. Completing his tour he was selected for Pilot Training and returned to the UK. In 1918 now as a pilot he was posted to 78 Squadron flying out of Suttons Farm with Sopwith Camel single seater fighter aircraft. There role was Home Defence and Algie took part in a number of patrols, in the pursuit of the Gotha Bombers attacking London and Southern England. At the end of the war he remained with 78 Squadron and was awarded the AFC in June 1919 and was then placed on the unemployed list awaiting demob in August of that year.

http://www.bosleys.net/b67/medals.html

#10 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:28 AM

Thank you for your valuable input. I have done a bit of googling with the the names that you mention and will add a few thoughts.

Algernon Foukles-Attwood; I have found a photograph of him on an Oxford College website and there is a certain similarity. However, my photograph would have to date from around 1909 to be him and I am sure that the lack of cuff rank in my photograph rules this out. He also has family ties to Wales rathan than Ireland.

Algernon Lawrence Berry appears to be too old at 36 when he killed in action on 7th July 1916 and again the cuff rank argument applies.

Algernon George Sumner Goodman; commissioned December 1916, was born in 1884 and has links with West Derby. Again he is possibly too old at 32 to be the man in the photograph.

Norman Algernon Brown is a likely candidate as the photograph seems to date from later in the war, (lack of cuff rank again),and he was relatively young at 20 in 1918. However, his links seem to with Biggleswade, at least that is where he is buried and his mother lived in 1919.

The link with Belfast is puzzling and there are scenarios which preclude him having lived or worked there himself. It is possible that his photograph was sent to a relation or a friend in Belfast who had the photograph framed locally.

I can find no connection with the Royal Fusiliers and Belfast during the Great War or indeed the first four battalions of the London Regiment (T.F.)and Belfast.

It is of course possible that the photograph slightly post dates the Great War.

#11 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:06 AM

There may be something in the William Algie theory. I cannot find him on the FreeBMD website so he doesn't appear to have been born in England or Wales. Algie appears to be a good Irish name with Belfast connections. The 25th Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers were of course the 2nd Tyneside Irish. It may just be possible.

I will investigate furher when I get home from work.

#12 SteveE

SteveE

    Lieut-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 6,206 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cambridgeshire
  • Interests:25th Bn. Royal Fusiliers (Frontiersmen) & The East African Campaign.

Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:54 AM

I can find no connection with the Royal Fusiliers and Belfast during the Great War

Not Belfast per se but the 6th (Reserve) Battalion were at Carrickfergus from 1917 onwards.

Regards

Steve

#13 Jonathan D'Hooghe

Jonathan D'Hooghe

    Lieut-Colonel

  • Old Sweats
  • 505 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lincs
  • Interests:20th Hussars and 7th Btn Suffolks
    www.worldwar-ancestry.co.uk

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:20 AM

Sorry for butting in on a fascinating thread but I can't believe that someone with the surname Algie would sign his card Algy which is definitely the shortened version of Algernon. IMO- there is always the exception to the rule!

#14 IPT

IPT

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:29 AM

Yes, i'd agree it's probably not him.

I just like to confuse matters wherever possible.

#15 Verrico2009

Verrico2009

    Brigadier-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 2,057 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Leeds

Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:03 PM

Can't see any mention of this man:-

Algernon Frederick Reid
28th London Regiment, 2/Artist Rif, Royal Flying Corps, Royal Fusiliers

2/Lieut in both RFC and Royal Fusiliers

Unusually, MIC appears to indicate he first landed in France on 3.6.18.

Is he a possibility?

Edit - must be reading it wrong: limited screen at work over lunch. He seems to have become 2/Lieut in the RFC on 6.6.17. Also doubt he's Algie.

#16 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:59 PM

Sorry for butting in on a fascinating thread but I can't believe that someone with the surname Algie would sign his card Algy which is definitely the shortened version of Algernon. IMO- there is always the exception to the rule!


I admit that it is unlikely but one never knows. It could be an affectionate nickname. Either way, if I check him out we can rule him out of the equation.

#17 Verrico2009

Verrico2009

    Brigadier-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 2,057 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Leeds

Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:23 PM

There may be something in the William Algie theory. I cannot find him on the FreeBMD website so he doesn't appear to have been born in England or Wales. Algie appears to be a good Irish name with Belfast connections.

There's a 20 year old William G Algie on the 1911 census, showing as "Belfast resident" under "where born". Parents from Glasgow. Family living in Hartlepool. Your man looks quite young, but I'm minded of one of the partners at work who still looks like a schoolboy: must be knocking 40 by now. And my brother had to grow a beard to get served in pubs.

#18 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:25 PM

Can't see any mention of this man:-

Algernon Frederick Reid
28th London Regiment, 2/Artist Rif, Royal Flying Corps, Royal Fusiliers. 2/Lieut in both RFC and Royal Fusiliers

Unusually, MIC appears to indicate he first landed in France on 3.6.18.Is he a possibility?


He might be. He seems to have come from Leighton Buzzard.

#19 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:39 PM

Not Belfast per se but the 6th (Reserve) Battalion were at Carrickfergus from 1917 onwards.

Regards

Steve


Thank you; I have just checked my atlas and found that Carrickfergus is situated on Belfast Loch. I imagine that soldiers would have arrived from and left for England by taking a ship from Belfast. So I think that 6th (Reserve) battalion is the likely link.

#20 Verrico2009

Verrico2009

    Brigadier-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 2,057 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Leeds

Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:44 PM

He might be. He seems to have come from Leighton Buzzard.

Born London. Father from Cornwall, on second(?) wife (married 3 years to Algernon's stated age of 12). Might have travelled in his role as a picture frame maker.

#21 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:46 PM

Louise,

thank you for the update. If his father was a picture framer it must surely be a coincidence.

I am now thinking that the 6th (reserve) battalion is the key to this. As they were at Carrickfergus from late 1917 we need to be looking for an officer who was newly commissioned in 1917 or 1918 and who was posted to the reserve battalion; or an officer who having been wounded, was sent to the reserve battalion in 1917 or 1918. It will mean checking the service papers of those officers called Algernon serving with the Royal Fusiliers who were still alive in 1917/18 to see if they were in the 6th battalion.

Or, of course, finding a similar named photograph.

#22 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:08 AM

If service with the 6th (reserve) battalion Royal Fusiliers at Carrickfergus in 1917 or 1918 is the key to this puzzle, we can safely rule the following Algernon's out.

Lieutenant Algernon Oswald Coggin. KiA 27th October 1916.

Lieutenant Algernon Lawrence Berry. KiA 7th July 1916.

Captain Algernon Foulkes-Attwood. KiA 8th October 1914.

Algernon Frederick Read. He was commisioned into the RFC in June 1917 and could not have been at Carrickfergus as the 6th (Reserve) battalion did not move there until the end of 1917.

This leaves only two probable candidates:

Captain Algernon Horace Jackson. If he was sent to the 6th (Reserve) battalion after being wounded.

2nd Lieutenant Norman Algernon Brown. Commissioned 26th September 1917 and later died 28th February 1919, age 21, whilst serving with the 4th Battalion Royal Fusiliers.

However, the London Gazette of 9th October 1917, page 10484 has the following:

Territorial Force. Undermentioned, from Officer Cadet Units, to be Second Lieutenants from 26th September 1917:
London Regiment.
Norman Algernon Brown.

I think therefore Norman Algernon Brown is the most probable candidate but I will need to check his service papers.

#23 IPT

IPT

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:46 PM

I wonder if this was him, although I still can't find a medal card.


From "The Full History of the 4th Battalion The London Regiment" - http://archive.org/s...e/n381/mode/2up

Officer reinforcements at this period were :

27th December (1917)— 2/Lieuts. P. J. Payne, N. A. Brown and V. O. Prince.

#24 high wood

high wood

    Major-General

  • Old Sweats
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:03 PM

I wonder if this was him, although I still can't find a medal card.


From "The Full History of the 4th Battalion The London Regiment" - http://archive.org/s...e/n381/mode/2up

Officer reinforcements at this period were :

27th December (1917)— 2/Lieuts. P. J. Payne, N. A. Brown and V. O. Prince.


It almost certainly is him. I would need to check an Army List for late 1917 to see if he served in the 6th battalion before being sent to the 4th.

Thank you for your help.

Simon