15 replies to this topic

[Brent Tandy]

Hi There,

My Grandfather was in the 1st Brigade 3rd Battery NZFA. The below division order that was in the War Diary at the archives was the mission that my Grandfather was acting under when he was badly injured, having his leg amputated the same day (20th Feb 1918). From what I've been told and also what I've managed to work out is that they were fighting near Broodensinde. I was greatly encouraged to see all these map references which relate to where they were firing. The War diary had their location for the 20th Feb at I6C (as far as I can tell from the old style writing). I have looked in our archives for trench maps and online but I find it hard to know what to look for. There seem to be so few 1/10,000 scale maps and I've had no luck finding anything. Can anyone here help out? I'd love to know exactly where he was fighting at the time.

Many thanks, Brent


S E R E C T

  

  LEFT DIVISIONAL ARTILLERY

  ORDER No. 68

  

  Headquarters

  17^th February, 1918

  

  Reference – D2, 1/10,000

             "C" Corps Target Map

  

  

  

• A raid will be carried out by      the 1^st Batallion, Otago Regiment (2^nd N.Z. infantry      Brigade) at a date and zero hour to be notified later.

  

  

• The objective is a line from      J.17.a.50.55. to J.17.a.75.75., which includes a derelict tank and a      Pill-Box, both occupied by the enemy.

  

  

• The objectives of the raid are :      -

  (a)    to obtain prisoners,

  (   to impair the enemy's morale.

  

  

• Wire will be cut by 2^nd      Brigade, N.Z.F.A., as required by G.O.C., 2^nd N.Z. Infantry      Brigade, by intermittent fire spread over several days prior to the      attack.

  

  

• Artillery support will be given      by 1^st. and 2^nd. Brigades N.Z.F.A., and three 6-inch      Newton Trench Mortars.

  The Right Divisional Artillery are co-operating by neutralising fire on POLDERHOEK CHATEAU and the enemy's machine gun positions in the vicinity of the CHATEAU.

  

  

• The action of the New Zealand      Artillery is shown on the attached tracing "A" and will be as follows : -

  

  (a)    By 2^nd. Brigade, N.Z.F.A. – A barrage to protect the left flank of the raid, as under : -

  one 18 – pounder battery – J.11.d.20.00. – J.11.d.60.40.

  one 18 – pounder battery – J.11.d.20.00. – J.17.b.20.00.

  one 18 – pounder battery – J.11.d.60.40. – J.17.d.95.50

  

                           (2 howitzers – J.17.b.80.90.

  4.5 howitzers – (2 howitzers – J.17.c.75.45.

                           (2 howitzers – J.12.d.15.55

  

  ( By 1^st Brigade, N.Z.F.A. –

                                                    i.      One 18 – Pounder battery to assist 2^nd. Brigade, N.Z.F.A., will fire on line J.11.d.20.00 to J.11.d.60.40

                                                  ii.      Destructive fire to inflict loss and distract the enemy's attention from the point to be raided : -

  One 18 – Pounder – occupied area, J.12.a.32.20 – J.12.a.52.48

  One 18 – Pounder battery – Trench J.12.c.75.76. – J.12.d.02.72

  

  4.5 howitzers – (4 howitzers – Trench J.12.c.76.76 – J.12.a.97.25

   (2 howitzers – Dug Outs at side of road, J.12.c.85.98 –   J.12.d.02.72

  

  ©    6-inch Newton Trench Mortars –

  1 Mortar – Pill-Box, J.11.d.38.06

  2 Mortars – Occupied area, J.12.a.40.30

  

  (d)   Fire will be continuous on above targets from zero to zero plus 15 minutes.

  

  (e)    Rate of fire for 18-pounders and 4.5-inch howitzers will be Rate 4.

  

  (f)    Rate of fire for 6-inch Newtown Trench Mortar will be 4 rounds per mortar per minute.

  

  (g)   Ammunition will be expended in the proportion of 50% A and 50% AX.

  4.5-inch howitzers will fire 50% No.106 fuses.

  

  

• An officer from the Divisional      Artillery Headquarters will call at headquarters of artillery brigades      taking part, at a time to be notified later, for the purpose of synchronizing      watches. D.T.M.C. and Right Divisional Artillery will synchronize by      telephone.

  

  

• Registration will be carried      out as unostentatiously as possible, and will be completed the 19^th      instant.

  

  

• Ammunition expended will be      additional to ordinary allotment.

  

  

  Signed Major for Brigade-Major, N.Z.D.A

  

  Issued at 5 p.m.

  

  Normal Distribution. (1copy only to 3^rd Brigade N.Z.F.A.) (Tracing "A" to 1^st and 2^nd Brigades N.Z.F.A. , and D.T M.O. only).

[RogerShephard]

Hi Brent

If he was wounded on 20 Feb 1918, then he was at Polygon Wood
I don't follow where you get 16 C from for a map reference - all the map references in your quoted info above are the ground they are firing onto. not where they were firing from.
for instance "J.17.a.50.55. to J.17.a.75.75., which includes a derelict tank and a Pill-Box" is an easy one to pin point itsthat tank was a abandoned British tank on the north side of Juniper Wood, which is south of Polygon Wood.



16C is probably where they were located (firing from) but where is that reference?
Because there should be further numbers after 16C that denote the actual position
16 C would place them just behind the NZ frontline, south west of the 'tank' and almost on the route of the A19.

Cheers Roger

[RogerShephard]

for example
Another reference you have given - "one 18 – pounder battery – J.11.d.60.40. – J.17.d.95.50"

J11d 60.40 is roughly where the German Cemetery used to be - shown tagged in the google earth map above.

[Roger H]

I suspect the guns were firing from I 6 c, not "16 c".  I have marked the relevant area in green.  Note however that this map is dated June 1917 before the third battle of Ypres and therefore the trenches are "outdated" in respect of the period you are interested in.

Roger

Attached Images

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[Roger H]

I have marked the points J.17.a. 50. 55 and J. 17. a. 75. 75 on this December 1917 trench map - closer to the time line in question.  Courtesy of TNA trench map CD from N and M Press.

Roger

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[Roger H]

And squares J11 and J12 here.  Same source and date of previous map. (Edit: and this link is a great guide on how to read trench maps - http://www.westernfr...-trenchmap.html

Roger

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[Brent Tandy]

Just a quick note to every one who replied. Sorry for my silence. I must have changed my settings as i didn't get email notifications of the replies. I've very greatful for the replies!

I will digest them all and reply again soon.

Cheers, Brent

[Kiwi Bob]

Hello Brent
Since  I joined the Forum, you are the first person I know who has made any information request re the 3rd Battery NZFA. This is the unit of my special interest. Can you give me the name of your Grandfather? I may be able to help with some more info. Also do you have any writing by him, it may help me. I am also interested to know where you located the War Diary details?
Cheers Kiwi Bob

[Brent Tandy]

Hi Kiwi Bob,

My Grandfather was James George Tandy Gunner 50527. I got the War Diary from the National Archives in Wgtn (I also live in Wellington). It was a triplicate copy so not all the clear to read but still good enough. The diaries can't be accessed on Archway. They need a manual request. At the back of the diary for Feb 18 was the divisional oder 68 as an appendix. The diary also makes mention of granddad 'telephonist' being wounded. I also got some other files relating to the No 1 Bridage NZFA that had other divisional orders and general files etc. I have various documents from Ganddad but it's mainly after his injuries - a diary from Oatlands Park, letters, photos etc. The most interesting thing I have are the 'shoot' notes he was taking at the time he got injured (trench mortar) when he was in the front trenches. He must have never handed in the notes due to his injury (leg amp above knee). He was helping co ordinate the gun fire. The 5 sheets are folded in quarters and were probably in his pocket. There are still trench mud stains on them.

If you have more info on the 3rd battery from around the Dec17 and Jan-Feb 18 period it would be fantastic!

I still need to digest the location info that has been kindly provided above. Having the locations mapped is stunning. I hope to get copies of  the relavent maps in his res at some point and i can go through it all. The CD rom of maps sounds like a great option for this

Cheers, Brent

[Brent Tandy]

Hi Rodger S,

Many thanks for the location info . The google map is great. Knowing where they were firing into is quite something.  I think that Rodger H is correct saying the location where they were firing from was I 6 C. THat's how I interpreted it from the War diary but didn't write it down very clearly. THat reference can from the location colunm of the War diary itself.

Rodger H thanks for the trench maps. They are just awesome. I would love to know what the CD rom you mention all holds. Are there scans of the entire maps in high resolution. In other words are the images you posted just crops from the larger map? I unfortunately don't have enough knowledge of the map locations for 1 6 c that you posted to know exactly where that is. I can't make out any place names that give a clue.

Brent

[Roger H]

Brent

Details of the trench map DVD can be found here: http://www.naval-mil...r-each-map.html.  Yes, as you summise, the extract was a crop from a larger map.  Here is a wider view showing the location - just to the East of Ypres and North of the Menen Road.  Hope this is useful.

Roger

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[Kiwi Bob]

Hi Brent
Thank you for your reply. I will see what I can offer once I check a few things out. I have quite a lot of written material of Brigadier General George Napier JOHNSTON who was the commander of all Kiwi and Aussie and later - I think - all British Empire artillery throughout Gallipoli and Europe. It is a shame most of it is pre-Europe but I will check it out. Your grandad must have come in to the war fairly late with the number he has. I assume his army file has been digitized and if so I will have a read of it.
The maps and comments etc supplied by friends from the Forum are great.
Best regards
Kiwi Bob

[RogerShephard]

Hi Bob

If 3rd battery is your thing, i think i have a postcard album of 60 odd postcards of what i think is 3 battn guy.

I have only just started on this as i picked it up recently at an auction. the postacrds date from 10 dec 1918 through to probably mid 1919 as they end in Paris.
He has recorded each town they traveled through to get to Germany and added notes on the back about the buildings in the postcards.
I think the album belonged to a Gunner Harold Morton.
One postcard is in Grub aus Coln-Dellbruck and it is a building called hotel Resturantion Kaiser Hof, Bes W. Lensen
He has noted on the back - "orderly room A coy 3rd Batt? from 22 Dec 1918."

would you have the location of the NZFA on that date?
If so and this is a 3rd Batt album it maybe of interest to you.

Cheers Roger

[Kiwi Bob]

Hi Roger, I have just checked in with the Forum. For some reason I no longer get alerts in my email, thus the delay in responding. Perhaps no one gets alerts now? This certainly sounds like 33652, Gunner Harold Bruce MORTON. I have ordered his army file and when it is digitized it should tell us a lot about where he was at the time you mention. If he was in the 3rd Battery, I would certainly like to know what he writes about.
I have a document/war diary written by Brigadier-General George Napier JOHNSTON which describes what all the allied artillery were doing in 1918 but I am not permitted to “publish” it. I would be pleased to let you have a few snippets from it by email at cameron.marg.bob@xtra.co.nz if you wish.
Please advise me if you want me to send it on.
Cheers Kiwi Bob

[Brent Tandy]

Hi Kiwi Bob,

Yes James George Tandy did join the wars somewhat later in the peice. Sailed out of Wellington August 17.

I have an interview of sorts, more of a Q&A that was typed up after a relation (around a few corners) asked if he could ask my grandfather a few questions about the war. This was in 1990 when he was 95 or so. I was still a kid at that time to realise the significance of what he all went through back then (he lived with us right to the end) and I'm, really sad that I never had the chance to talk to him myself. Anyhow this little Q&A is quite interesting because grandad says that because he knew morse code (from his time with Wellington Engineers -  No 4 company I think) he says he did daily trips to the front line trenches presumably for communinations. Do you (or anyone else) know if it was usual for a gunner to do this? Daily trips would have impacted his battery (being a man down?).

He also says that before he went ot the war he did manoeuvring which was part of the reason he ended up in the Artillery. What was manoeuvring?


I have to say I don't fully know how things were run from day to day. Can you maybe give me a run down of a typical day (generally speaking) such as where they slept, would they be constantly firing the guns or some days not at all etc?? I really have no idea what it was like.

Thanks for any help.

Brent

[Roger H]

Brent Tandy, on 19 June 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

he says he did daily trips to the front line trenches presumably for communinations. Do you (or anyone else) know if it was usual for a gunner to do this? Daily trips would have impacted his battery (being a man down?).

Brent

Brent

Signallers of Gunner rank would frequently be on or near the front line as well as Forward Observation Officers.

Roger