20 replies to this topic

[NickW.]

I have recently found 3 medals which belonged to my German grandfather (the one my English grandfather was fighting against!). and I want to try to identify them. The first is I think the Iron Cross with on the obverse a central W, above which is a crown and below 1914.The reverse has central 3 oak leaves , above them a crown  and FW and below 1813. The middle medal is bronze coloured with inscribed around the edge Fieldzug 4 Armee 1914-15, in the centre below a bust Viribus Unitis and it has  a red and white ribbon. The third medal is balck with a maltese cross in the centre in which is a central W, above which is a crown and below 1914. Above this is the word Eisenne, and at the bottom 47 Res Division. The ribbon is orange central stripe, then white, then black. Can anyone identify any details from these, and also does the last two give any indication of where he might have served?
regards,

Nick

[ph0ebus]

Without the photo of the medals, the first certainly sounds like the EK.  What does the ribbon look like?

The others, no clue.  Can you post a picture?

Daniel

[NickW.]

Thanks for the reply.
Hopefully I have managed to attach a photo of the medals.

Nick

Attached Files

•  1918-medals-Heidtmann,-Hinrich3.gif   70.4K   2 downloads

[ph0ebus]

Certainly looks like an EKII...hopefully someone can help with the rest.

Daniel

[khaki]

Hello Nick,

The first medal as already stated is the Iron Cross 2nd class, the second medal appears to be an Austrian commemorative medal for the 4th Army campaign (Emperor Franz Josef on the obverse) and the third medal is likely an unofficial association medal commemorating the 47th reserve division of the German army.

The wearing of association medals was normal following the armistice and during the Weimar Republic period, the combination of Austrian and German medals is quite normal as well and suggests that at some time the recipient and his unit were associated with Austrian units.

khaki

[depaor01]

Is the mounting style pictured an Austrian variant? I was aware that Austrian medals are usually suspended on folded triangular ribbons.

[khaki]

depaor01, on 06 May 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Is the mounting style pictured an Austrian variant? I was aware that Austrian medals are usually suspended on folded triangular ribbons.

The mounting of the medals from what I can see from the photo appears to be standard German style/

khaki

[Connaught Stranger]

The first is the 1914 Iron Cross Ii Class,

I believe the Austrian "medal" in the middle to fall under "Patriotika,"
and is not a medal per se, the ribbon is that used for many of the
Austro-Hungarian Bravery awards. Is it possible to see a picture of the rear?

The Iron Division / Eisenes Division Medal dates to the 1920 and was a German FreiKorps Unit.

Connaught Stranger

[NickW.]

Thanks for all the information.

I now think the medals actually belonged not to my grandfather, but to my great grandfather, Hinrich Heidtmann. He had been a cavalryman in the Hanoverian army before the Great War, became riding master to the Count von Schulenburg at Wolfsburg Castle, and went with the Counts's son off to war in 1914. He went to the Western Front first - the family story is that he saved the son's life from French cavalry: a possible reason for the Iron Cross. Later they were on the Eastern Front (I have some photos of this), which may explain the Austrian connection. The 47 Reserve Division locations fit this scenario as well.

regards,
Nick

[khaki]

Connaught Stranger, on 06 May 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

The first is the 1914 Iron Cross Ii Class,

I believe the Austrian "medal" in the middle to fall under "Patriotika,"
and is not a medal per se, the ribbon is that used for many of the
Austro-Hungarian Bravery awards. Is it possible to see a picture of the rear?

The Iron Division / Eisenes Division Medal dates to the 1920 and was a German FreiKorps Unit.

Connaught Stranger

I doubt if the Austrian medal falls under 'patriotika' as it commemorates the 4th Army campaign specifically, the last medal commemorates the 47th reserve division which was an active division of the German Army seeing action on the Eastern and  Western Front. It saw active service from 1914 thru 1918 and was disbanded at Mainbresson June 30th 1918. Former members of the division may have been members of the later Freikorps unit/s, but from what I can find the Division  had ceased to exist
khaki

[Connaught Stranger]

khaki, on 07 May 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I doubt if the Austrian medal falls under 'patriotika' as it commemorates the 4th Army campaign specifically, the last medal commemorates the 47th reserve division which was an active division of the German Army seeing action on the Eastern and  Western Front. It saw active service from 1914 thru 1918 and was disbanded at Mainbresson June 30th 1918. Former members of the division may have been members of the later Freikorps unit/s, but from what I can find the Division  had ceased to exist
khaki

I have gone through the book "Orden & Ehrenzeichen 1800-1945" by Jörg Nimmergut and the only reference to the "Iron Division" was in the Freikorps section, where it specifically lists a medal in 3 types of metal, Silver, Bronze with silver plate, and Weiss Metall, however no picture.

Of course the possibility remains that its an unofficial commemorative medal for veterans of the unit, or an unofficial unit commemorative medal, the ribbon colours are not listed in the book " particularly in the Prussian section, (I hope Nick can post a better picture of the full bar front and back?)

I my opinion the Austrian award in second place, may come under same "unofficial but tolerated" as the Austro-Hungarian military officials in particular were very lax with regards the issuing and wearing of such items as "tinnies" particularly in caps etc.. etc..

Also the general shape of the bar and its style, as seen, reminds me that it might originally have had a Austrian Bravery award in Silver or Bronze, the Iron Div, medal might be a later addition, again I would like to see pictures of the front and rear.

Is there any evidence that the Division was serving alongside Austrians, Austro-Hungarian's either in the west or East?

Connaught Stranger.

[khaki]

The 47th R.Division took part in the offensive at Gorlice-Tarnow where the Austrians were engaged.  I found the medal online and it is described in detail as a pinback badge that was semi-official and also suggested that based on the battles listed on the reverse as a wartime issue. It apparently was not liked by the General Staff and only some units wore it. I don't know enough about it to say whether it was ever issued with a ribbon or was always a pinback. It may be that the veteran chose to have it mounted as a 'medal' rather than kept as a badge, as you are aware, the immediate post  WW1 years saw a variety of veteran association medals and unofficial medals until replaced   by the so-called 'Hindenburg Medal.
khaki

[Connaught Stranger]

khaki, on 08 May 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

The 47th R.Division took part in the offensive at Gorlice-Tarnow where the Austrians were engaged.  I found the medal online and it is described in detail as a pinback badge that was semi-official and also suggested that based on the battles listed on the reverse as a wartime issue. It apparently was not liked by the General Staff and only some units wore it. I don't know enough about it to say whether it was ever issued with a ribbon or was always a pinback. It may be that the veteran chose to have it mounted as a 'medal' rather than kept as a badge, as you are aware, the immediate post  WW1 years saw a variety of veteran association medals and unofficial medals until replaced   by the so-called 'Hindenburg Medal.
khaki

Halo khaki

I agree with your above, just to say in my honest opinion if, its "a pinback badge" it falls more into the "tinnie" category, Military Orders and Medals with pin fixings tend to be of the First Class type and usually of some considerable workmanship.
Yes many combinations were put together in the immediate years following the end of the war, with multiple veteran bought unofficial military association medals being added to official awards, many veterans adding the Hindenburg Cross circa 1934, and unless still serving in the military, or in a civil / Public service positions were not required to remove all the unofficial awards as per Third Reich regulations.

Connaught Stranger.  

[khaki]

Hello Connaught Stranger,
In broad terms I would agree with your description of a 'tinnie' the only thing that separates this medal/badge from being a tinnie is that (based on the online description) that it has a reverse that contains dates and battles. My understanding of a tinnie is that they are generally one sided. However  the German wound badge is one sided but is described as a badge- abzeichen but in reality is closer to a medal/decoration. I think badge has a different meaning perhaps in German than it does in English until one reaches  the level of "badge of the order of etc".
Anyway, to stop rambling on I think we are close enough to be said to be in agreement.

regards

khaki

[Houston]

I recently bought in a market in Germany two medals on suspension rings sewn onto a cardboard bar covered in black, white, yellow, red, striped ribbon and with a large black safety pin stitched on behind.  I tried unsuccessfully to attach photos.

One of these appears to be an iron cross from 1 World War.   It is a black cross with a silver (?) border, outlined in fine beading.  On the front side top is a black crown above a large capital W and below that the date 1914. On the obverse, a crown above the letters FW, above a spray of 3 oak leaves, above the date 1813.  The suspension ring is stamped with two minute letters which look like KO.

The second medal I take to be from a veterans' association.  It is oval and may be made of bronze  or silver gilt.  On the front there is a picture of a tattered flag with four broken arrows/flashes of lightening; the dates 1914-1918 on the left hand side and the phrase "Blank die Wehr Kein die Ehr"on the top.  I can just make out a word in very small letters at the bottom which looks like "hosaeus."  On the obverse there is a quotation from hindenberg: Aufrecht u. Stolz gehen wir aus dem Kampfe den wir über vier Jahre gegen eine Welt von Feinden bestanden."  Around the top is the phrase: " für Treue im Weltkriege" and around the bottom, "der Kyffhäuserbund"

Any information you can give me about these would be welcomed.

[khaki]

Hi Houston,
From your description it sounds that you are right with your ID of the medals the first is the Iron Cross 2nd class instituted first in 1813 and again in 1914, hence the dates, the ribbon is black and white which are the colors of Prussia and the second Reich. The medal was awarded for bravery and outstanding exploits (my words) it was also awarded to non- combattants although the ribbon was predominantly white with black stripes. The other medal which you have described correctly as a veterans medal, was for members of the Kyffhauser bund which was a war veterans association with wide membership. In about 1935 all the unofficial medals were superceded  by the Frontkampfers medal known to collectors as the Hindenburg Cross.

regards
khaki

[Houston]

thank you very much for this.  I wonder if you know what the little letters KO (?) on the suspension ring indicate - might they be a maker's mark?  if  so, might that help to 'place' the medal in any sense?

[depaor01]

KO is the maker's mark of Königliches Münzamt Orden Berlin.

Dave.

[Houston]

Now I am showing my ignorance!  I take this to be the Prussian royal mint?  If so, I wonder how these crosses were made? could they have been produced in a die?  the workmanship is beautiful.  The whitish surround looks and feels like silver but I can't see any silver mark.  The black inner cross looks as if it is made of something else.  (iron?)  And is it known within what period of the 1 WW they were produced in Berlin?

[depaor01]

oops... I think I'm showing mine... It appears there's some debate about KO marks:

CLICK

Could be an oft-repeated online opinion masquerading as fact. The jury's out!

[Houston]

ha!  thank you for this link.  I don't quite know what to make of all this except that we might be back to square one!  I suppose it is likely that production records and lists of awards would have been destroyed in WW2?