36 replies to this topic

[Melvin Hurst]

From what I have read, it was considered a matter of disgrace in the pre-1914 British Army for guns to be abandoned in battle. This explains the near suicidal attempts to retrieve guns at Le Cateau, and in other actions.

But where did this tradition come from? Was it left over from an earlier period when guns were so much more valuable that, literally, their loss could not be tolerated? Or was it some sort of outdated matter of honour not to leave a gun on the battlefield?

[terryb95]

The Guns were and still are the colours of the Royal Regt of Artillery and also the AUSTRALIAN Artillery.  And as such are accorded the same respect as Infranty Colours.

Terry
Western Australia

[Simon Mills]

It's quite likely that the tradition stems from the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, as the Duke of Wellington was reputed never to have lost a gun.

There is also a story (probably apocryphal) that Lord Raglan ordered the British cavalry at Balaclava to advance in order to recapture a number of British guns that had been taken earlier in the day by the Russians, and who had subsequently begun to remove them from the captured British redoubts. Legend has it that Raglan ordered the cavalry advance because he was aware that Wellington's record was about to be lost and the result was what became known as the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Of course, in these enlightened days no one believes a word of it...

[Ron Clifton]

Many of the losses of British guns took place during the German offensive of Spring 1918. One battery history recalls that they managed to evacuate four of their six 60-pounders but had to leave the other two. They removed the breech-blocks and threw them into a nearby pool, having first connected them with lanyards to pegs driven into the ground and carefully concealed.

The following morning, the German advance not having caught up with them, they were able to return and reclaim both the guns and the breech-blocks.

The dangers of abandoning guns are well illustrated by the events in Battety Valley in April 1917 when two British infantry battalions were able, not only to capture 31 German field guns - almost the whole of a divisional artillery - but also to turn them round and fire them at the retreating German infantry.

Ron

[Simon Mills]

Front line experience would also seem to indicate that by the final stages of the war the outlook may have changed somewhat. This is particularly true of guns that were allocated to more exposed anti-tank duties, which were therefore more vulnerable to capture. The 24th Divisional Artillery Defence Scheme issued in August 1918 seems to indicate that they were considered to be expendable, giving the following written instruction to the NCO in charge of the gun itself:

"One round of H.E. fused with No. 106 Fuze will be kept in the gun pit for the purpose of destroying the gun should such a course be necessary."

Interestingly they also christened the gun and referred to it as "Billy".

[tootrock]

How was this shell used to destroy the gun?

Martin

[Simon Mills]

tootrock, on 08 May 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

How was this shell used to destroy the gun?

Martin

No idea. I'm afraid that the Defence Scheme isn't particularly detailed on that point, although it would be interesting to know. Perhaps the H.E. shell was just detonated alongside or beneath the gun, which would probably have sufficed to put it out of action and render it useless to the advancing enemy?

S.

[Pete1052]

Losing guns and howitzers is a disgrace in the U.S. Army as well.  When it can't be avoided the breechblocks are removed and thrown away.

[bill24chev]

I beleive that the TF batteries left the obsolete 15 pounders behind when they evacuated Gallippoli

[Ron Clifton]

... but, IIRC, they were all disabled before being abandoned.

As to destroying a gun with an HE shell, they might have fired the round, having previously put something down the barrel to block it?

Ron

[michaeldr]

Ron Clifton, on 08 May 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

... but, IIRC, they were all disabled before being abandoned.

Correct Ron
Farndale states that  '...they left no guns to the enemy, destroying 26 useless old ones...'

[Simon Mills]

Ron Clifton, on 08 May 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

As to destroying a gun with an HE shell, they might have fired the round, having previously put something down the barrel to block it?

Ron

I don't know if the shell fuse could be set off by a delayed timer, but wouldn't firing a round in a blocked barrel have endangered the gun crew? Unless they had a very long lanyard...

S.

[michaeldr]

Regarding Gallipoli, Farndale gives details of the Indian Mountain Battery removing fuses from shells and then pins from the fuses, the two being subsequently buried separately. Tubes were opened and buried.
Alas, he has no such detail about the methods employed in destroying any of the guns; he just says they were blown up

[nigelfe]

Possibly put any old shell nose first in the muzzle, then fire HE, although I'm not sure that this would work but perhaps enough to splay the muzzle and I wouldn't want to be the one firing it.

Subsequently there as always been a page at the back of the Gun Drill pamphlet for the equipment that details 'emergency destruction procedures', that involves removing certain key parts from the gun (starting with the firing pin IIRC).

[squirrel]

Nothing about disabling the Gun in the 1913 handbook on the 18 pdr but it does include a section on "Instructions for removing and replacing the breech fittings - to remove the breech fittings..." so I would guess that this covers it.

[michaeldr]

Removing the breechblock certainly seems to have been the preferred method in the EEF,
though not always successful and sometimes dangerous in the extreme

From 'The Honourable Artillery Company 1914-1919'

“In accordance with the usual custom in such operations, an inquiry was held into the loss of the guns, as a result of which the Commander-in-Chief sent the following letter to the Brigade:

'After making full inquiry into the operations on 1st may, the Commander-in-Chief wishes to congratulate the 19th Brigade RHA (A Battery HAC, B Battery HAC and the Notts Battery RHA) on their conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. The Commander-in-Chief is convinced that the RHA were not to blame for the loss of guns, or failure, in part, to destroy them.'

The concluding words refer to the fact that one or two of the breechblocks had not been removed before the guns were abandoned, owing to the fact that the men detailed for this work had been killed before their task was accomplished.”

[Op-Ack]

I've certainly read examples (WW2 I think) of an HE round being fitted nose first into the barrel and another fired in the conventional way (with a VERY long lanyard ) in order to destroy guns.  I beleive this was done during the Dunkirk advance to the rear.

[ianjonescl]

Op-Ack, on 09 May 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I've certainly read examples (WW2 I think) of an HE round being fitted nose first into the barrel and another fired in the conventional way (with a VERY long lanyard ) in order to destroy guns.  I beleive this was done during the Dunkirk advance to the rear.

Phil

I seem to remember this was a method for 105mm Light Gun.

[Bob B]

On March 28 1918 an 18pdr was in the front line as an anti-tank/enfilade gun. When the Germans were about to overrun the position it was abandoned the breech block and sights  were removed.

This was pre-arranged should the situation arise. The potential benefits obviously outweighed the risk.

Regards

Bob

[bill24chev]

The artillery Brigades of 42nd Division that servered at Gallipolli did destroy their guns prior to evacuation and the TA Regiments of the same Division also had to leave their guns behind at Dunkirk in 1940. According to the history of 53rd Field Regt, they removed and returned to blighty with all the undamnaged sights from the guns which they had removed prior to "spiking"them I think by blowing off the breach blocks.
I cant remember if they where 18pounders with modified wheels and train or mk 1 25pounders which I beleive had been 18 pounders re chambered for the 25lb shell.

[michaeldr]

bill24chev, on 09 May 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

The artillery Brigades of 42nd Division that servered at Gallipolli did destroy their guns prior to evacuation

Bill,

Can you let me have details for this, as the information which I have access to is incomplete

Thanks in advance
Michael

[nigelfe]

bill24chev, on 09 May 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

The artillery Brigades of 42nd Division that servered at Gallipolli did destroy their guns prior to evacuation and the TA Regiments of the same Division also had to leave their guns behind at Dunkirk in 1940. According to the history of 53rd Field Regt, they removed and returned to blighty with all the undamnaged sights from the guns which they had removed prior to "spiking"them I think by blowing off the breach blocks.
I cant remember if they where 18pounders with modified wheels and train or mk 1 25pounders which I beleive had been 18 pounders re chambered for the 25lb shell.

There were 216 18-pr lost in France in 1940.  Also lost were 632 18/25-pr.

The correct name for the 18/25-pr was Gun 25-pr Mk 1 on Carriage 18-pr Mk 4 or 5.  It had a 25-pr (3.45 inch calibre) barrel and breach in a modified 18-pr slipper.  The upper carriage was modified to take an entirely new sighting system.

[nigelfe]

ianjonescl, on 09 May 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Phil

I seem to remember this was a method for 105mm Light Gun.

The 2005 Gun Drill for 105mm in the Annex on 'Disablement and Destruction' gives the order of priority for destroying key parts of the gun and then states:

"Load the gun with a reversed HE shell (base first) in the breech,
unplugged and with no fuze fitted. Load with Charge 4 with the
polystyrene cap removed.

Fire the gun from under cover using rope or wire attached to the
firing lever. (Rope/wire to be at least 100 metres long)."

With 18-pr you'd have to separate the shell from the cart case, without damaging the lips of the case.

[michaeldr]

michaeldr, on 10 May 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Bill,

Can you let me have details for this, as the information which I have access to is incomplete

Thanks in advance
Michael

Bill,

The following should illustrate how far I've got with this to date

26 guns destroyed is the figure given by Farndale

Nine worn out guns and howitzers were destroyed at the Suvla/Anzac evacuation (no 15-pdrs)

balance at Helles is therefore, 26-9=17 : This figure agrees with Farndale;17 is also given in the OH Vol.II p.471/2

less 1 X 6-inch (British) and 6 'old heavy French guns' [see OH Vol.II, page 469]

balance = 10 guns to be accounted for

per 29th Div Artillery History;
5 X 15-pdrs destroyed (2 on night of 6/7th Jan and 3 on night of 8/9th Jan)
However, 3 X 15-pdr were evacuated on night 8/9th

Still looking for 5 guns

These could have belonged to the 42nd Div and back in August they were the only 15-pdrs at Helles
This is what I have for this div. per Appendix I of the '29th Divisional Artillery War Record and Honours  Book 1914-1918' which gives the Helles artillery organisation as at  23rd August 1915

1/5 E Lancs Battery (part of 1/1st E Lancs Brigade) 4 X 15-pdr [in Right Group]
1/6 E Lancs Battery NB: 1 Section only (part of 1/1st E Lancs Brigade) 2 X 15-pdr [in Right Group]
1/18 E Lancs Battery (part of 1/3rd E Lancs Brigade) 4 X 15-pdr [in Left Group]

On 23rd September 1915 there arrived at Helles
1/19th and 1/20th E. Lancs Batteries of the 1/3rd E. Lancs Brigade [posted to A Section Left Group]
Per Farndale, there also arrived at Helles on this day, 1 Section of 6th E Lancs Battery, 4th Battery, both of 1/1st E Lancs Brigade.
These additions amount to another c.14 guns?

If we are looking for only 5 unaccounted for guns, then a lot of the E Lancs artillery must have got away?
However, as I said, the info which I have access to is incomplete.

regards
Michael

[bill24chev]

michaeldr, on 10 May 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Bill,

Can you let me have details for this, as the information which I have access to is incomplete

Thanks in advance
Michael

From memory, i beleive I read this in "the Bolton Artillery" history a copy is held in Bolton Central Libruary The next time I call there I will get A Reference for you  if thats Ok?

Bill