15 replies to this topic

[mark holden]

I wonder if anyone is able to identify the significance of the patch sewn to the side of this 1916 Soft Cap? The cap has a well established Notts and Derby cap badge on its front.

Many thanks Mark

Attached Files

•  n&dcap1.jpg   43.94K   7 downloads
•  n&dcap2.jpg   44.18K   6 downloads

[Stoppage Drill]

Sherwood Foresters wore a square Lincoln Green patch on the side of puggarees and slouch hats in the Boer War, and painted it on the side of steel helmets in WW1. This appears to be a continuation. They wore the patch behind their cap badge on berets and this has continued through their reincarnations as Worcestershire and Foresters, and now as Mercian Regiment.

[john gregory]

Hi Mark,  the 1st/8th battalion N/D wore a green patch behind their cap badge also their battle patch was a green sq with 2" sides so it could have been sowed to the side of the cap. JG

[mark holden]

Stoppage Drill, John,

Many thanks for your help.

Mark

john gregory, on 14 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Hi Mark,  the 1st/8th battalion N/D wore a green patch behind their cap badge also their battle patch was a green sq with 2" sides so it could have been sowed to the side of the cap. JG

[AndrewThornton]

This configuration was worn by the 1/6th Battalion. There used to be a similar cap in the Cloth Hall Museum c1992 when I made a note of it on display. Based on this information, and suggesting the possible sequence used with 139th Brigade, the 1/5th Battalion may have worn the square patch on the left side as an identification. The 1/7th Battalion (Robin Hood Rifles) probably did not wear any badge backing as they had a unique cap badge within 139th Brigade so could be easily identified. I also noticed that the cap mentioned in an earlier thread on a surviving uniform of the 1/5th South Staffords has a red backing behind the cap badge, which corresponds with the red Stafford Knot worn on the tunic. This may signify that the other battalions in 137th Brigade wore badge backings that corresponded with the colours used for their Stafford Knots: 1/6th South Staffords - blue; 1/5th North Staffords - black and 1/6th North Staffords - yellow.

Weetham's history of the 1/8th Battalion mentions that the green baize of a billiard table found in a shelled house was used as replacement badge backing material in November 1915.

[john gregory]

The 1/6th Battalion N/Derby wore a dark  green diamond not a square, the 1/5th Battalion wore a green rectangle 2" x 1" on the back of the jackets, a sample is on the cover of the Battlion history.  The 1/7th flash was a black maltese cross worn on the back of the jackets.

The only N/Derby Battalions to have worn a badge backing were the 1/8th Battalion.

[mark holden]

Andrew,

Many thanks an interesting additional piece of information.

John,

Acknowledge the 1/8th being the only Bn to wear the patch behind the cap badge the conundrum is that this is on the side. I have tried other sources but to no avail.

regards

Mark

[AndrewThornton]

The diamond patch was worn on the back of the tunic by the 1/6th Battalion, but was later transferred to the upper arms, based on information from photographs and books. The position of the green patch worn by the 1/6th Battalion on the right hand side of their service dress caps is confirmed in a file held at the National Archives: WO 32/1279, when the successors of the unit, 575th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment  (RA) (Foresters) TA provided a supporting statement to justify their claim to the Director of Royal Artillery to retain a Lincoln Green flash behind their Royal Artillery cap badge to show their origins.

In the case of the 1/8th Battalion, the unit history confirms the patch behind their cap badge was worn in 1915, as do a couple of plates in the same book. With three battalions in the same brigade wearing the same cap badge, it would have made sense to have distinguishing marks on the cap in different positions to allow instant recognition in the tight confines of trenches.

[john gregory]

I respect your replies Andrew and I do have a photo of a 1/6th Battalion sergeant wearing a diamond above his stripes and I have seen photo's of the diamond on the their back's in one of the yearly annuals.  We are talking about the Great War not the ( RA ) ( Foresters ) TA.

To say that it makes sense to have distinuishing marks on their caps is guess work.  I thought that was what the shoulder titles were for.

Mark, I think that  your exellent cap is a one off where the 1/ 8th soldier came up with the idea to place his flash on the side.

[AndrewThornton]

Hello John

The statement from 575th LAA Regt believed that the unit had gained War Office sanction for wearing the patch on the right side of their service cap in 1921 (when they were still the 6th Battalion) but no evidence was provided.

As for shoulder titles, these could sometimes be lost or removed, Also, the Territorials had titles which included their numbers and this would also be a valuable piece of intelligence to any German raiding party.After all, British raiding parties routinely removed German shoulder straps for identifications if a live prisoner could not be secured. Perhaps the patches were introduced as a field security measure as well?

[KENDO]

Hi Mike Chappells book - Fiels service head dress 1902 to the present day in the british soldier in the 20 century series shows a 'gor blimey' cap with a green square where the cap badge should normally be and is descibed as 1/8 Bn 1915. Hope this helps

kendo

[mark holden]

Thanks very much Chaps for the 1/6TH Bn info. I have attached some pics of a post WW1 N&D Officers Cap that has exactly the same patch as the Trench Cap but the 1/6th Bn/RA asociation now makes more sense.

Thanks again

Mark

Attached Files

•  NANDD.jpg   61.01K   0 downloads
•  NANDD1.jpg   46.54K   0 downloads

[Wainfleet]

Do we know whether or not this patch was worn in wartime? The OR soft cap looks wartime-made, also the officer cap. Or might they date from the April 1920 reorganisation of the 46th Division (LLT refers)?

[Stoppage Drill]

To show that the practice was not unique to the Foresters, Scots Guards officers wear a Royal Stewart tartan patch on both sides of their SD caps to this very day. (Should that be Stuart ?)

[Yankee Snaffles]

Glad I saw this thread . . . had been wondering if the 1st Scots Guards had the RS patch on both sides of the cap. I presume the same was true on the Brodie helmet?

[Nigel_Aspdin]

I recall that I already gave my view on these green patches in 2007!, please refer to:

http://1914-1918.inv...is

for explanation of the 5th Battalion green patch worn on the back of the tunic. Maybe it was also applied to the cap...it seems a logical thing to do.

Those posts included these two photographic examples of the green patch in "traditional" use by the 5th Battalion in the 1947 and after.

Note: The 2/5th Battalion used a green triangle hence the history "The Green Triangle: Being the history of the 2/5th Battalion, the Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derby Regiment) in the Great European War, 1914-1918 (W G Hall),