17 replies to this topic

[Karori_Dean]

I have recently purchased a house in Wellington NZ that was constructed in 1898.  While clearly out the house I found an old artillery shell casing.  My father served in the NZ Artillery and has a 25pdr shell casing from 1941.  This is taller, but a smaller circumferance, and likely a smaller calibre.  The shell casing is slightly thicker and appears to be of a period around WW1.  The top has three crimp points.  The bottom of the shell has three markings.  At 12 oclock it hs CK(k is in a circle)1, at 2 oclock it has CFF (FF in smaller font), at 6 oclock it has 5 N2 (N connects to an arrow pointing up, 2 sits below N) 97.

The original owner may have had a nephew who served in Royal Field Artillery.  He was wounded at the Somme, returned and won the Military Cross in May 1917.  His name was William Noel Pharazyn.  Does anyone know what type of shell this is?  I would appreciate any assistance.

Regards Dean

[TonyE]

We really need dimensions and a photograph to be able to identify it properly.There are a considerable number of possible candidates.

About all one can say from the information you give is that it is British and probably naval (The "N" sounds like an inspectors stamp)

It was originally loaded with a Cordite Full Charge ("CF") and then reloaded with another full charge (The second "F") The manufacturer may be Kynoch but again a photo is needed.

An often found case that is narrower and longer than a 25 Pr. is the 6 Pr. Nordenfelt, but that is no more than a guess. Dimensions and picture are needed.

Regards
TonyE

[Karori_Dean]

Thanks for this, I will measure and take pictures.

[Wendy Mac...]

Dean Hi and welcome to the GWF. You may need a minimum of five posts before you can put up a photo! Give it a go.... 'More Reply Options' bottom right corner.

We may need to have a chit chat to get you there, prehaps you could tell me how the weather is in Wellington and I can tell you what the weather is like in Palmerston North

Wendy

[TRAJAN]

And I'll tell you know that its sunny in Ankara Turkey, but only 19 degrees...

[Wendy Mac...]

TRAJAN, on 21 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

And I'll tell you know that its sunny in Ankara Turkey, but only 19 degrees...

Let me go and get my togs and I'll join you on the beach   shivers

[Karori_Dean]

Here some images

[Karori_Dean]

^{Thanks Wendy, seem to have cracked it.  Weather in Wellington is not flash.  25pdr is the shorter of the two shell casings.  The shell I have found (note it was not in this condition.  A local guy does the restoration for $35.  It is 290mm long and has a 90mm dia}

[Wendy Mac...]

Wohoo... they came up nice with a good clean, great find. I'm sure the chaps on here will be able to add some information.

Wendy

[Karori_Dean]

OK does anyone have any leads on the shell identification?

[31543 Ogilwy]

Karori_Dean, on 29 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

OK does anyone have any leads on the shell identification?

K-D, Yes I can recommend an organisation, and they'll give you lessons and a nice set of multi coloured clothes to wear!  All you have to do is take this Shilling Sir and for the next few years we'll teach you everything you need to know, (I fell for that one!!).Joking aside get a copy of the Treatise of Ammunition 1915.  That's available from Naval and Military Press in the Uk and has a good percentage of the British munitions from that period.  Even Kiwi's can learn this stuff!  My other half is a Kiwi and when we are digging on the battlefields, (Authorised, correctly conducted archaeological projects) she can now recognise most common items when they are found.  She did get an interesting day out with my French counterparts the sécurité civile démineurs, who let her work with them for a day, (being blond with all the requsite other assets may have swayed this descision!).If you want other advice on how to learn about this subject then PM me and we can talk.Regards,Rod

[TonyE]

The taller, earlier case is certainly naval, but I am not sure of the calibre, possibly a 12 Pr? (Naval ammo a bit outside my remit!)  It was made in May 1897 and has been loaded, fired and reloaded as I explained above. It may well have been made by Kynoch, but their normal stamp of that period is "GK" for George Kynoch.

The 25 Pr. Mark II was made by E.Curran, Cardiff (ECC) in 1941. The primer was filled at Royal Ordnance factory Chorley (CY) in what looks like May 1945 (5  45) which seems odd for a case made in 1941 and only loaded once (CF).

I think that is about all I can tell you,

Regards
TonyE

[centurion]

Some batteries of 12 pounder naval QF guns were installed in the 1890s to protect New Zealand coastal defence fortifications against fast moving inshore craft (Russian torpedo boats being seen as a threat). These guns were under army command . I believe that there is one at the Army Memorial Museum, Waiouru. Your found case many be from one of these.

[Karori_Dean]

Thanks everyone.  Centurion, your observations make a lot of sense.  There were a number of coastal defence locations constructed  in Wellington in response to the Russian threat at that time.  Wellington is suitably hilly and had numerous locations suitable to provide cover of the harbour entrance.  Secondly the house was built in 1898, which fits this time period.

[Karori_Dean]

Also thanks for the recruitment advice.  At 44 I probably only good for the Territorials!

[Karori_Dean]

Further to Centurion's comments, a search on Wikipedia noted that QF-12pdr cwt were used for coastal defense in NZ.  The same site provided an image of the shell which matches what I have, including the same type of screw to take the fuse for the shell.  There was also a reference that the Fort Ballance site included two QF-6pdr Nordenfelt pieces.  They said that these were not to be confused with the Cockerill-Nordenfelt (Belgian) artillery pieces.  I only note this because of the Ck (Cockerill?) stamp on the base of the shell.

[TonyE]

I think it would greatly avoid confusion if the correct terminology was used, although I appreciate that not everyone is familiar with this .

Dean has a cartridge case, not a shell. The shell is the projectile. Similarly, the cartridge case is threaded for a primer, not a fuze. The fuze is part of the projectile and serves to detonate it.

Cheers
TonyE

[Karori_Dean]

Here is link to the QF 12pdr noted above. http://en.wikipedia....r_12_cwt_AA_gun

They were used by the RN and for AA.  The cartridge case noted in this article is very similar to mine.  Thanks Tony for your comments.