48 replies to this topic

[MichaelBully]

Hello Billy, I am also going to track down Frederick Manning's The Middle Parts of Fortune  following the Fussell interview reference. I understand that Her Privates We  is this writer's most know work.
Regards
Michael Bully

billy_s, on 30 August 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Thanks for the link Michael.  In the interview I noted that he described Frederic Manning's   The Middle Parts of Fortune as...an excellent account of the British First World War. I'm not familiar with this work but it seems to be highly regarded.  I will give it a try when I've finished reading the Sassoon 'Sherston' trilogy.
Best wishes
Billy

[Cockney Sparrow]

MichaelBully, on 01 September 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Hello Billy, I am also going to track down Frederick Manning's The Middle Parts of Fortune  following the Fussell interview reference. I understand that Her Privates We  is this writer's most know work.
Regards
Michael Bully

"Her Privates We" is a watered down version of "The Middle Parts of Fortune" I believe. The original was deemed a little too shocking when originally released!

[Chris_Baker]

Manning's work is excellent but is fictional (just in case you had not twigged that).

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for the posts Cockney Sparrow and Chris.
Looked out my copy of Her Privates We . It's on my shelf of books that I've yet to read but not quite got round to .
The Author's Note from 1929 mentions the concept of 'war as a punishment of crime' which stuck in Fussell's mind

"War is waged my men not by beasts; or by gods. It is a peculiarly human activity. To call it a crime against mankind it to miss at least half its significance; it is also the punshiment of a crime. That raises a moral question, the kind of problem which which the present age is disinclined to deal . Perhaps some future attempt to provide a soloution for it may prove to be even more astonishing than the last"

Regards, Michael Bully

Chris_Baker, on 02 September 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Manning's work is excellent but is fictional (just in case you had not twigged that).

[Kath]

Bought an Oxford pb 'Great War and Modern Memory' this a.m. from Oxfam (1.99).

Fascinating. One of those books that lead you to read others.

My copy has a photo on the cover of a soldier with hands on hips looking weary. I couldn't find any ref. to it in the book. Anyone know where it was taken?

Kath.

[michaeldr]

Kath, on 04 September 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

One of those books that lead you to read others.

How very true Kath.
Since reading TGW&MM, I’ve gone on to at last finish Max Egremont’s biography of Sassoon and I am now ⅔ of the way through Blunden’s ‘Undertones of War’ & enjoying it immensely
I feel sure that I shall no doubt be referring back to Fussell again & again
Sorry that at the moment I can’t help with the picture query. (I take it that this is the one http://www.theearlyw...roduct/3044.jpg)

Regards
Michael

Edited by michaeldr, 05 September 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[Kath]

Thanks, Michael.
Yes, that's it.
The expression on the soldier's face is compelling - what are his thoughts?

Kath.

[michaeldr]

Kath, on 05 September 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

The expression on the soldier's face is compelling - what are his thoughts?

His look reminds me of the expression "1,000 yard stare"

[seaJane]

I'm fairly sure that's an image from IWM's collection: if you would like to know more about the photo I can ask an acquaintance there?

[Kath]

Thanks, Jane.
Be interesting to find out more.

Kath.

[seaJane]

I have asked, Kath - watch this space.

[Kath]

Thanks  

Kath.

[Stoppage Drill]

This will probably be more annoying than illuminating, because I can't remember references. However, I think that photo is one of a series of very well composed images taken of British prisoners taken by a German photographer in March 1918. They all show men in various demoralised or shocked states, for propaganda purposes. The whole sequence is in IWM as I had some correspondence with them about others in the same set, about 20 years ago. One of the sequence shows three men in ridiculous hats - a bowler, a donkeys straw hat and a French peasants cap - that must ring some bells for someone better organised than me ?

[michaeldr]

Well done SD!
The IWM have it in their collection at http://www.iwm.org.u...bject/205125330
'A shell-shocked British soldier captured by the Germans'
part of "Geiser Theodore (Mons) Collection" (photographs) 1918
The British Army on the Western Front

[Kath]

Thanks, Michael and SD.

Kath.

[geraint]

The very last paragraph of The Great War and Modern Memory writen by Fussell in the Afterword chapter says

"Not the smallest part of what success this book has had must be due to the inexpressibly touching photograph on the cover' the picture of the discouraged young soldier wearing the wading boots required for daily work in the flooded trenches. I came across it by sheer accident in the War Museum and sensed that the boy's expression was unmistakably "twentieth century". If anyone ever looked aware of being doomed to meaningless death, it is this boy. I would like to think that his image, and this book as a whole, have added a few volunteers to the Boo-Hoo brigade."

(I'm not sure what the Boo-Hoo Brigade is though. Condemnatory of war? Weepingly emotional?)

[Kath]

"the boy's expression was unmistakably "twentieth century". If anyone ever looked aware of being doomed to meaningless death, it is this boy."

I can think of C19th. paintings, it is true, where the same can be seen:
http://s3-eu-west-1....829/A829515.jpg

http://www.victorian...paintings/7.jpg

(From memory of Arthur Mee's Encyclopaedia).

Kath.

[MichaelBully]

I can't find the 'Afterword ' chapter in the copy that I have got of 'The Great War and Modern Memory' . Was this added to later editions? Regards Michael Bully

geraint, on 07 September 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

The very last paragraph of The Great War and Modern Memory writen by Fussell in the Afterword chapter says

"Not the smallest part of what success this book has had must be due to the inexpressibly touching photograph on the cover' the picture of the discouraged young soldier wearing the wading boots required for daily work in the flooded trenches. I came across it by sheer accident in the War Museum and sensed that the boy's expression was unmistakably "twentieth century". If anyone ever looked aware of being doomed to meaningless death, it is this boy. I would like to think that his image, and this book as a whole, have added a few volunteers to the Boo-Hoo brigade."

(I'm not sure what the Boo-Hoo Brigade is though. Condemnatory of war? Weepingly emotional?)

[MichaelBully]

Indeed Kath, I can't see how anyone can have an 'unmistakenbly "twentieth century" expression (!) . But from the quote above, , the writer states that " I came across it be sheer accident in the War Museum and sensed  ( My emphasis ) that the boy's expression was unmistakbly "twentieth century".
So I suppose that we are embarking on a modernist discourse re. subject and object or something like that,  which is a bit beyond me, expecially for a Friday evening.
. But how I interpret the paragraph is that the author has decided that the photo of said boy embodies the writer's own perspective, which seems to be that the Great War definitely changed our culture's view of war.
Perhaps the Great War didn't. Or alternately Paul Fussell's source material was too limited to draw such a conclusion.
Regards
Michael Bully

Kath, on 07 September 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

"the boy's expression was unmistakably "twentieth century". If anyone ever looked aware of being doomed to meaningless death, it is this boy."

I can think of C19th. paintings, it is true, where the same can be seen:
http://s3-eu-west-1....829/A829515.jpg

http://www.victorian...paintings/7.jpg

(From memory of Arthur Mee's Encyclopaedia).

Kath.

[Kath]

Quote Michael: "the author has decided that the photo of said boy embodies the writer's own perspective, which seems to be that the Great War definitely changed our culture's view of war."

Yes, I agree, Michael.

Kath.

[geraint]

MichaelBully, on 07 September 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I can't find the 'Afterword ' chapter in the copy that I have got of 'The Great War and Modern Memory' . Was this added to later editions? Regards Michael Bully

Mine's theTwenty Fifth Anniversary edition, 2000 in which  "the author has prepared a new Afterword, providing insights into the writing of this classic work." (Publishers' blurb.)
High time I re-read it.

[michaeldr]

As I mentioned earlier, the copy which I bought is the illustrated edition, which as far as I can tell came out in 2009. In view of other Pals' above comments, it is rather surprising then, to note that the illustration in question was not included here

The Afterword is similar to the 25^th anniversary version referred to by Geraint and it concludes with the sentence
“I would like to think that this book as a whole has added a few volunteers to the Boo-Hoo Brigade.”

As to what Fussell meant by adding to the 'Boo-Hoo Brigade'; I think that he may have given a clue in an earlier paragraph of his Afterword
“... The British soldiery … … … How did they stand it? What did they think about it?”
and
“… I hoped to suggest ... some of the psychological and intellectual dimensions of 'combat' – to use the current euphemism. I hoped that the effect of the book on such readers might persuade them that even Gooks had feelings, that even they hated to die, and like us called for help or God or Mother when their agony became unbearable."

[geraint]

That's very interesting Michael. I wonder why the 2009 edition left out the photo and, of course, changed the text because of that omission?
Hmm! "Boo-Hoo brigade!" You may be right. I'm still not sure though.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks, my copy was published a lot earlier! Will try to find the 25th anniversary  edition next time I am at the British Library . Regards

geraint, on 07 September 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Mine's theTwenty Fifth Anniversary edition, 2000 in which  "the author has prepared a new Afterword, providing insights into the writing of this classic work." (Publishers' blurb.)
High time I re-read it.