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Turkish M1890 Bayonet - Mystery Manufacturer


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#1 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:03 AM

Recently bought a Turkish M1890 Bayonet and have been using the following thread http://1914-1918.inv...pic=161354&st=0 in an attempt to ID the maker's mark on the ricasso. As yet I've had no joy and this particular one doesn't appear on there. Can anyone help?

God, I've spent so long squinting at intricate squiggles my eyes are watering.

Best,

Simon

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#2 TRAJAN

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:04 AM

Hi Simon,

Try post no. 173 on that Turkish bayonets thread - it seems to match that one, but S>S hasn't posted a reading of it yet. Is your bayonet a 'Turked' one? The serial numbers look Republican Turkish and if so they were added after 1928 or so.

Trajan

#3 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:28 AM

Top Man! My apologies I hadn't seen that one at all.

In truth the photo is not of my bayonet - it was just a better photo of the marking as my bayonet has some pitting on the ricasso which obscures the marking. Mine has a full length blade and quillon and only arabic numerals on it. It came from a house clearance in Scotland so I suspect it was somebody's prized war trophy once upon a time.

Any idea which German manufacturer this might translate to?

Simon

#4 TRAJAN

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:40 AM

... Any idea which German manufacturer this might translate to?..


Can't help on that - I have enough on my hands dealing with ancient Greek and Latin inscriptions, so am happy to leave it to S>S. He should be up shortly... :thumbsup:

Trajan

#5 31543 Ogilwy

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

Trajan,

Illegitimis non carborundum [est]!

Rod

#6 TRAJAN

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:44 AM

...Illegitimis non carborundum [est]!...


Rod, et alia,

Si hoc comprehendere potes, gratias age magistro Latinae...!!!

Trajan

#7 shippingsteel

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:48 AM

Simon - I am happy to help out with the maker, but would you be able to send me a photo of your bayonet markings via PM please.?
I am in the process of cataloguing as many of these different markings as I can, so your assistance with this would be much appreciated.
I already have the sample photo you posted listed in my database.! Ebay does provide a very good resource for skimming such photos. :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S

#8 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:57 AM

Hi S>S,

My pleasure. I will send you the display photos from the dealer but these are not great although you can make out most of the detail. I'll be taking some photos myself when it arrives which will be ten times better so if you can give me an e-mail address (I think the mb capacity of the photos will not go on a PM) I'll send you those also.

It has a number on the cross-guard in arabic but I understand that this is a SN and not, as I would like, a regimental marking like what the huns had.

Best,

Simon

#9 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

I've just tried but can't seem for the life of me to get the photos to go on to a PM. Why not PM me your e-mail address and I'll wing them over to you now.

S

#10 31543 Ogilwy

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:09 AM

Trajan,

Self taught, the need to be able to translate epigraphy!!

Die dulci fruere

Rod

#11 shippingsteel

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:15 AM

I've just tried but can't seem for the life of me to get the photos to go on to a PM.

And I can't seem to get a PM to go through to you.! Might want to check your inbox or something.?

Cheers, S>S

#12 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:15 AM

Alright,quit showing off with your Latin already - some of us are too young and too state-school-educated for it. ^_^

#13 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

Sorry, have another go now, it should be okay this time.

#14 TRAJAN

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:09 PM

... some of us are too young and too state-school-educated for it...


I grant you that Rod and I might have a few years on you - and me more on Rod - but both of us were state-school rejects who came to Latin later in life when we both seem to have made the same mistake, believing that "Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes " - which is, roughly speaking, "if you can read this, then you can get a really good job in the fast-paced, high-paying world of Latin" :thumbsup: ! Seriously, though, just passing time while we all wait for S>S to reveal what the mystery Osmanli markings are... :)

Trajan

#15 31543 Ogilwy

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 03:38 PM

I'm glad IT is not on the curriculum! I'm hopeless at it and even though can happily deal with just about any ammunition I can't programme the video (or DVD R/RW nowadays)!! :blush:

Rod

#16 TRAJAN

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 04:11 PM

...I'm glad IT is not on the curriculum! I'm hopeless at it and even though can happily deal with just about any ammunition I can't programme the video (or DVD R/RW nowadays)!!


I share with you that (well, not the ammo bit!).

Come on S>S, we are all waiting!

Trajan

#17 Simon127

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:19 PM

Out of interest, does any one know whether the 1890 bayonet fitted the 1903 rifle?

#18 shippingsteel

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:19 PM

Out of interest, does any one know whether the 1890 bayonet fitted the 1903 rifle?


The M1890 Turkish bayonet was initially made for the M1890 Mauser rifle, but could also fit the later version M1893 and M1903 Mauser rifles.
Your bayonet was made as part of the shipment of M1893 Turkish Mausers and is dated 1895. Photos received and PM sent - thanks Simon.!

Cheers, S>S

#19 shippingsteel

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:13 AM

Seriously, though, just passing time while we all wait for S>S to reveal what the mystery Osmanli markings are... :)


Well for all you "cunning linguists" who have been chipping in your 2p, here is the translation of the markings - put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.!! :lol:

Cheers, S>S

#20 31543 Ogilwy

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 10:58 AM

Damn, out done by worm speak!! I feel so inadequate now :blush: !!

S>S, You've succeeded in impressing yet again. If can only discover how to get the photo's of my 07 Wilkinson to an acceptable level I'll post them for your comments. I'm rather proud of it as I got it for a song on ebay, although the 1910 broad arrow marked H Williamson of London Trench watch was a real find on there also.

I'm off to put on some curly toed sandals and my pyjamas and see if I can learn a new language :w00t: !

Yours Aye,

Rod



#21 TRAJAN

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:38 PM

...Well for all you "cunning linguists" who have been chipping in your 2p, here is the translation of the markings - put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.!! :lol:
سيمسون فابريق ى سولره


Transcription - not translation! Otherwise I have to say what a 'cunning stunt' we have here, as the cursor goes backwards on those wriggly things...A guess... Do we have a ASAKIKRBAF there? :thumbsup:

Seriously though, I recknon that's a SUHL at the beginning, but I can't attempt any more as I really do have to dash to get the younger nipper from creche (15:36 here right now) :(

Trajan

#22 shippingsteel

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:46 PM

Transcription - not translation! Otherwise I have to say what a 'cunning stunt' we have here, as the cursor goes backwards on those wriggly things ...


No I did the translation, but then decided to transcribe it back into Osmanli for you - just to keep you guessing, ha ha (Latin must be SOOOO easy.!)
And BTW the Osmanli writing does read from right to left ...

Cheers, S>S

#23 Simon127

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:53 PM

Whats the difference between arabic - which is what I always thought it was - and Osmanli? Do tell . . .

#24 shippingsteel

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:10 PM

Whats the difference between arabic - which is what I always thought it was - and Osmanli? Do tell . . .


Well it is very similar but brings about 4 different letters across from the Persian as well, together with some slightly different usage of the vowels.
So basically the Osmanli is a Persian-Arabic language using mostly Arabic writing with a few local adaptations. I'm not that clear on the finer points.

The ruling family of the Ottoman Empire for the duration were the Osmans, which were of Persian origins and the upper classes used this language.
Which made it quite difficult for the bulk of the Turkish population as most did not use it or understand it even back then, and now its virtually extinct.

Cheers, S>S

#25 31543 Ogilwy

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:23 PM

It's all Greek to me :w00t: !

Rod