5 replies to this topic

[TRAJAN]

This has to be one of the oddest examples of a 'Turked' bayonet I have ever seen. It belongs to a contact in Belgium, who tells me that the Belgian army received Turkish weapons after 1918, and he has given me his permission to put this up on GWF for any further comments.

Basically, as picture B (middle) shows, this is a Coppel (Solingen) made bayonet, that was produced in AH 1307 = AD 1889. As noted by Shipping Steel on the Turkish bayonets thread ( http://1914-1918.inv...pic=161354&st=0 ), page 7, post 167, it seems that Coppel only made M1887 bayonets, but I think that all the examples of these that he has seen to date were all made in 1887/1888? - I know he'll correct me if I am wrong on anything said so far!

But as a close look at this photo shows, along with an examination of pictures A (top) and C (bottom), the original muzzle ring of this M1887 has been cut off and replaced with a brazed-on piece, with the muzzle ring now set at 19,7 mm above the tang so that it could be fitted to a M1890 rifle...

The ingenuity and sense of economy practiced by the Turkish army in adapting existing bayonets to new weaponry never fails to amaze me, from the straightening and shortening of Peabody M 1874 Yataghan bayonets, to the 1950's practice of fitting spacers with a smaller dameter on the back of muzzle rings of 1935 pattern bayonets, but this case - fitting a new upper crossguard section - has to be one of the best examples of the practice!

Trajan

Attached Files

•  Rik 1887 GWF A.JPG   23.21K   0 downloads
•  Rik 1887 GWF B.JPG   22.46K   0 downloads
•  Rik 1887 GWF C.JPG   17.89K   0 downloads

[TRAJAN]

My Belgian contact sent me some more detailed photographs of his bayonet - here they are. Isn't it amazing the way that they made a neat mortise-and-tenon joint to fit the new M1890 muzzle ring onto the existing 1887 one! And S>S (in particular), isn't that a lovely set of ricasso markings as well!!!

Trajan

Attached Files

•  rik A DSC05628.JPG   25.21K   0 downloads
•  rik B DSC05629.JPG   20.75K   0 downloads
•  rik C DSC05630.JPG   19.42K   0 downloads
•  rik E DSC05631.JPG   25.79K   0 downloads
•  rik F DSC05632.JPG   26.8K   0 downloads
•  rik G DSC05633.JPG   29.1K   0 downloads

[shippingsteel]

Wow, that is amazing - I especially like that neat joint that they made, that certainly is going to a LOT of trouble. Thanks for posting these pictures.!
Its always fascinating when you know of something that should or could exist, and then you actually get to SEE the evidence right there in the flesh.!

The Turks never missed a trick when it came to reworking and reusing something, very ingenious (but also I think encouraged by their lack of finances)
During my investigations into all things Turkish (err, mainly war materiel) I did read somewhere that they converted the old black powder M1887 rifles.

I think during the Balkans war they became very short of weaponry so began a programme of upgrading the old rifles so they could fire the new ammo.
They apparently rebarreled these rifles to the more modern calibre 7.65 x 53 which was their current standard before and during the war (also Belgiums)

So I guess when they changed the rifles over they had all these spare bayonets, so "waste not want not", someone decided they should be converted also.
Much Turkish weaponry was captured in the Palestine and Mesopotamia campaigns, and the rifles fired the standard Belgian round so were sent on as aid.

And you are right about Coppel, from what I have seen they only made the M1887 bayonet and then only for the single year, all marked with 1306 (or 1888)
And thanks for posting those extra photos, I was going to have to ask for a shot of those markings, but that detail of the brazing work is just sensational.!

Cheers, S>S

[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 05 June 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

...Wow, that is amazing - I especially like that neat joint that they made, that certainly is going to a LOT of trouble. Thanks for posting these pictures.! ... ... And you are right about Coppel, from what I have seen they only made the M1887 bayonet and then only for the single year, all marked with 1306 (or 1888)...

I'm glad you like it, and yes, it is a fine example of 'Make do and mend'!  Thanks also for the extra explanations re-conversions and how this could/would have got to Belgium, which I will pass on to the owner (and herewith for you to savour a small from me for stupidly confusing my 6's and 7's!!!)

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 05 June 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

(and herewith for you to savour a small from me for stupidly confusing my 6's and 7's!!!)

Darn, I missed a real opportunity there didn't I ... should've highlighted those dates in Heavy Bold type.! No, being a gentleman I graciously chose to let that one slide.!

Cheers, S>S

[TRAJAN]