233 replies to this topic

[gordon92]

A thread on this topic http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=174294  was started earlier this year by Grumpy on the Miscellaneous board where he asked for a guide to sporrans, and I will assume there is still interest in this. There are some good, yet fragmentary, responses in the original thread.  As this is a project that interests me, I thought I would take it on; after all, I may learn something more through a more systematic examination of the photographic evidence.  I moved it over here where it might get more play.

I would be pleased to do this for the Scottish line infantry regiments; I will start with the Highland regiments (BW, HLI, Seaforth, Gordons, Camerons, A&SH) and then the pipers of the Lowland regiments (RS, RSF, KOSB, Cameronians/SR).

I do not collect photos of the Scots Guards, London Scottish, or Liverpool Scottish.  Would anyone else who has an interest in these units care to look at their sporrans?  Anybody for the purse sporrans of the Irish regiments' pipers?

The Tyneside Scottish wore trews, and I believe so did their pipers; but I could be wrong about that.  The regular battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers had a piper or two in their military bands, but they too wore trousers.

I will do a regiment of the Scottish line infantry each day or so.

[gordon92]

The Black Watch:

This is one one of the more simple cases as there were but three patterns of sporrans common to both battalions.

 phpEBCNdcAM.jpg   13.44K   6 downloads   Worn by ORs, sergeants pre-1903, bandsmen

 phpRFuf5tAM.jpg   14.33K   5 downloads  Worn by officers in full dress review order & various undress orders, pipers, drum major, Sergeants from 1903

 phpqPPPOqAM.jpg   37.55K   3 downloads  Worn by officers in levee dress

[gordon92]

Highland Light Infantry:

The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role.  In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews.  In 1948 the kilt was regained.  Perhaps because of the trews and their allocation of a depot in Hamilton through the 1881 reforms, the HLI have been mistaken by some as a Lowland regiment.  In fact, the HLI never lost its Highland status.



 phpCQYCOqAM.jpg   21.51K   1 downloads  Worn by pipers of both battalions and the pipe major of the 1st Bn.

 2HLI PM c1908.jpg   27.65K   3 downloads  Worn by pipe major of 2nd Bn.

 6HLI Pvt.jpg   11.9K   3 downloads  6th (City of Glasgow) Bn TF, 1st Bn 1948-1952 including bandsmen.

The 9th (Glasgow Highland) Bn TF wore sporrans and uniforms almost identical to the Black Watch except for the red hackle until 1948.

[Suddery]

Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran.

Edit: Should read Black Tassels (Thanks for highlighting error to 4thGordons)

Attached Files

•  lscots.jpg   43.66K   2 downloads

[4thGordons]

Suddery, on 05 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran.

White?

[gordon92]

Suddery, on 05 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Excellent idea for a thread. London Scottish Private; two white tassels on a black sporran.

Suddery, did London Scottish officers wear the same pattern sporran?

[Suddery]

4thGordons, on 05 June 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

White?

Er... my error. Black of course.

[Suddery]

gordon92, on 05 June 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Suddery, did London Scottish officers wear the same pattern sporran?

Yes, as did Drum Major.

S

[GRUMPY]

That is a massive hi-jack of a thread, sir, but your intentions are good and I shall go with the flow, as it were.

One quote: The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role.  In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews.

Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner?

[gordon92]

GRUMPY, on 06 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

That is a massive hi-jack of a thread, sir, but your intentions are good and I shall go with the flow, as it were.

One quote: The 71st discarded the kilt and went into trousers in 1808 upon being assigned the light infantry role.  In 1834 they adopted tartan trousers and trews.

Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner?

No offense intended in "hi-jacking" the thread.

Regarding trews versus trousers: Your statments are correct.  Further, trews are strapped underneath the boot while trousers are unsecured at the bottoms.  Those Scottish regiments who sometimes wore short spats would have done so with tartan trousers.

[Andrew Upton]

Suddery, on 06 June 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Er... my error. Black of course.

Actually black tassels on dark brown, eg:

http://www.ebay.com/...=item589324f7f5

GRUMPY, on 06 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Why the distinction: do you agree trews were with one outside leg seam only, originally and primarily for riding, cut tight, and trousers had one outer and one inner?

I always understood trews were made with the one seem at the back of the leg so that it did not interfere with the pattern of the tartan visible at the front and sides.

[gordon92]

Andrew Upton, on 06 June 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Actually black tassels on dark brown, eg:

http://www.ebay.com/...=item589324f7f5



I always understood trews were made with the one seem at the back of the leg so that it did not interfere with the pattern of the tartan visible at the front and sides.

I just looked at a pair of Cameron trews.  The seams are are on the inside of each leg.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

I'm afraid you are wrong. The TS didn't wear trews and the pipers wore kilts.

1st TS wore Shepherd's Tartan Sporrans had two white tassels
2nd TS wore Campbell of Loundon tartan
3rd TS not sure
4th TS as for 2nd TS Sporran two white tassels.

regards

John

Attached Files

•  Piper Ernie Boyce 3.jpg   69.12K   4 downloads

[gordon92]

Tyneside Chinaman, on 06 June 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I'm afraid you are wrong. The TS didn't wear trews and the pipers wore kilts.

1st TS wore Shepherd's Tartan Sporrans had two white tassels
2nd TS wore Campbell of Loundon tartan
3rd TS not sure
4th TS as for 2nd TS Sporran two white tassels.

regards

John

Thank you, Tyneside Chinaman, for correcting a grave misapprehension on my part.

That is a great image of the 1TS piper you posted.  As you may know, the pipers of the 4th (Border) Bn King's Own Scottish Borderers also wore the Shepherd's tartan.

[gordon92]

Seaforth Highlanders:

The Seaforth sporrans' lineup is more complex and convoluted because of battalion distinctions some of which originated pre-1881 before the amalgamation of the 72nd (non-kilted) and 78th under the Childers reforms.  (The original plan was to pair the 72nd with the 91st and the 71st with the 78th.  But all of that had to be redone when Queen Victoria intervened to prevent her 79th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders from amalgamating with the 42nd, a proposition that was also rejected by the Camerons who were unwilling to wear the 42nd tartan.)  I will have to spread this across several messages because of the 100K limitation.

 phpTDpZYLAM.jpg   27.48K   2 downloads  Worn by ORs both Bns, bandsmen 1st Bn only

 phpmB1jBDAM.jpg   34.74K   2 downloads  Worn by Sgts & drum majors both Bns, bandsmen 2nd Bn only, pipe major & pipers 1st Bn only


 phpZA5m8PPM.jpg   20.9K   0 downloads  Worn by officers in undress orders and some orders of full dress (e.g., guard mounting order)

continued in next message

[gordon92]

Seaforth Highlanders (continued)

 phplLiSt9PM.jpg   32.42K   0 downloads  Worn by officers in full dress review order & levee dress

 phpZTixuEPM.jpg   30.36K   0 downloads  Worn by 2nd Bn pipers

 phpj4C0uCPM.jpg   25.3K   0 downloads  Worn by 2nd Bn pipe major


continued in next message

[gordon92]

Seaforth Highlanders (continued)

 phpi9HMroPM.jpg   25.57K   0 downloads  5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Bn TF, worn by ORs and Sgts (2 tassels)

 5SH Tain 1911.jpg   14.46K   0 downloads 5th Bn, worn by officers (3 tassels)

[GRUMPY]

post 15 the sergeant is BAND sergeant.

[Suddery]

 phpZTixuEPM.jpg   30.36K   0 downloads " Worn by 2nd Bn pipers "  Post 16



Fascinated by the head-wear, never come across this before. Looks like a cross between a slouch hat and a tropical helmet can you elucidate please ?

(Thanks for some wonderful images. Despite my roots I'm ashamed to say I do tend to struggle differentiating between Scottish regiments, especially where varying battalion traditions are maintained, and this is all very helpful).

Suddery

[Suddery]

Possibly of interest to this thread.

Attached Files

•  argyll.jpg   65.02K   2 downloads

[gordon92]

GRUMPY, on 07 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

post 15 the sergeant is BAND sergeant.

Indeed the image is of a Band Sergeant.  He wears the same sporran common to all sergeants in the Seaforth Highlanders.  The cantle is similar to an officer's sporran but without the battle honours.

[gordon92]

Suddery, on 07 June 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

phpZTixuEPM.jpg " Worn by 2nd Bn pipers "  Post 16



Fascinated by the head-wear, never come across this before. Looks like a cross between a slouch hat and a tropical helmet can you elucidate please ?

(Thanks for some wonderful images. Despite my roots I'm ashamed to say I do tend to struggle differentiating between Scottish regiments, especially where varying battalion traditions are maintained, and this is all very helpful).

Suddery

Suddery,

This 2SH piper is carrrying a Wolseley pattern foreign service helmet; thus, it is a tropical helmet.  A white hackle is tucked into the pugaree.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Suddery]

Thanks Mike, something about the angle made it seem odd.

I noticed an advertisement in the recent 'Naval & Military Press' book list for a publication entitled "Military Sun Helmets of the World" and thought 'how arcane !'. Amazing how quickly these words have come back to bite me in the rear.

Suddery

[gordon92]

Suddery, on 07 June 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Thanks Mike, something about the angle made it seem odd.

I noticed an advertisement in the recent 'Naval & Military Press' book list for a publication entitled "Military Sun Helmets of the World" and thought 'how arcane !'. Amazing how quickly these words have come back to bite me in the rear.

Suddery

Suddery,

The author of that book has a website http://www.nyc-techw...ria/helmets.htm that may interest you.  There is a section on British sun helmets.

Mike

[Suddery]

Hi Mike

I've bookmarked it - another great resource.

Believe it or not I was looking at the helmet from the viewpoint of the hackle as being at the front and I've only just noticed the strap. Take a look from this perspective and you'll see how I got so confused.

...anyway, back to the sporrans.

Regards

Suddery