221 replies to this topic

[gordon92]

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (continued)

  Left: Officer wears a badger head sporran in review order; this sporran would also be worn in undress orders.  Right: Officer wears levee dress sporran.

   Piper's sporran.  A&SH pipers wore black glengarries while pipers of all other Scottish regiments donned blue glengarries except for The Black Watch whose pipers wore feather bonnets in full dress.  Scots Guards pipers also wore feather bonnets after 1928.

continued

[gordon92]

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (continued)

  Piper of the 91st.  Notice Boar's head badge below shoulder strap on Baldrick bely and the plaid brooch with Cairngorm stone.

  Piper of the 93rd.  He wears a wildcat badge on the Baldrick (indistinct) and a hollow plaid brooch.

[gordon92]

To wind up the A&SH, here are some men of the 91st in India 1912-14 showing off their lovable little pet.

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 11 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Suddery,

The best general description of orders of dress that I know of for this period is on pp. 15-16 of Dress Regulations for the Army, 1911.  If you do not have access to this document, I could scan the two pages and post them. Let me know. The particulars of the dress of the Scottish regiments constitute a minefield.  To quote David Murray regarding Scottish regimental dress "...there are no experts, only students."  One would need the Standing Orders of each regiment for detailed descriptions, and I doubt even these would provide the full picture.

Regarding levee dress, this would be worn by officers attending a levee, i.e., for presentation at Court to the Sovereign.  In the kilted regiments, the only difference between full dress review order and levee dress is the substitution of buckle shoes and full hose for the spats, highland shoes, and hose tops worn in review order; nonetheless, there are exceptions as always, e.g., The Black Watch and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wore a different sporran in levee dress.  See post #27 in this thread for a Gordon Highlanders officer in levee dress.  In English, Welsh, Irish, and Scottish trewed regiments, it is my understanding that the uniform for review order and levee dress was the same.  However, on the latter point I am probably overstepping my expertise.  Perhaps, someone else could offer a better explanation on this last matter.

Mike

Review and Levee Order became the same after 1902 because of cost, but before that date Levee Order was one step above Review Order and involved changing from pantaloons or overalls with a scarlet stripe to a pair with gold lace stripes, and swapping the crimson silk sash for one that was either, striped or ribbed part gold and part crimson, with the type of sash (cross or waist) depending on the period or Nationality of unit (Scots Line retained cross type), together with a matching, gold laced sword belt and 'carriage' (i.e. two slings).  

Real gold lace is in fact a core of linen warp and silk or cotton weft, wrapped in a base metal that has been gilded with gold. It is called orris lace. It is about 2.5% gold, and worth £60 a metre. It fades over time, in unison with the ageing and darkening cloth.  Unlike Review Order it was a form of dress that applied only to officers and was usually used when officers were presented at Court or when a member of the Royal Family visited a regiment and held an audience for the officers.

The Guards still retain the latter (ribbed) type of waist sash (that replaced the striped cross sash shown below) and one was worn by The Duke of Cambridge (aka Prince William) at his wedding.  

I enclose an image of a soldier of the A&SH that shows the swinging six very well.  It was taken in India in 1912.  Notice also the undress frock and the diced flash and hackle on the Wolseley helmet.

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•  1ASH%20Pte%20Holloway%20India%201912-14.jpg   38.92K   4 downloads
•  willharry.jpg   54.95K   4 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

And here a mounted officer in Review Order, notice the scarlet striped pantaloons and the butcher boots.

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•  19156.jpg   68.19K   0 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

And here an officer in Levee Order showing the gold laced sash and sword belt, together with a colour image to show how the contrast appeared.

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•  post-821-1189583728.jpg   36.77K   0 downloads
•  ForumREPic.JPG   16.78K   0 downloads
•  $(KGrHqZ,!q!E-wl2PhS7BPv1oM,lO!~~60_12.jpg   25.13K   0 downloads

[Suddery]

FROGSMILE, on 13 June 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

And here an officer in Levee Order showing the gold laced sash and sword belt, together with a colour image to show how the contrast appeared.

A raising of the hat as usual Frogsmile.

When I've assimilated the wealth of knowledge on this thread I'll have resolved an awful lot of questions I've been pondering for some time.

Suddery

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 12 June 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Review and Levee Order became the same after 1902 because of cost, but before that date Levee Order was one step above Review Order and involved changing from pantaloons or overalls with a scarlet stripe to a pair with gold lace stripes, and swapping the crimson silk sash for one that was either, striped or ribbed part gold and part crimson, with the type of sash (cross or waist) depending on the period or Nationality of unit (Scots Line retained cross type), together with a matching, gold laced sword belt and 'carriage' (i.e. two slings).  

Real gold lace is in fact a core of linen warp and silk or cotton weft, wrapped in a base metal that has been gilded with gold. It is called orris lace. It is about 2.5% gold, and worth £60 a metre. It fades over time, in unison with the ageing and darkening cloth.  Unlike Review Order it was a form of dress that applied only to officers and was usually used when officers were presented at Court or when a member of the Royal Family visited a regiment and held an audience for the officers.

The Guards still retain the latter (ribbed) type of waist sash (that replaced the striped cross sash shown below) and one was worn by The Duke of Cambridge (aka Prince William) at his wedding.  

I enclose an image of a soldier of the A&SH that shows the swinging six very well.  It was taken in India in 1912.  Notice also the undress frock and the diced flash and hackle on the Wolseley helmet.

FROGSMILE,  Thank you for the excellent images and the detailed clarification of pre-1902 levee order.  A follow-up question: Was it in 1902 that for Guards and Line Infantry (notwithstanding Scottish regiments) the waist sash replaced the shoulder sash?  What was the reason for this change?  I surmise that by moving the sash to the waist this eliminated  the cost for officers of acquiring/maintaining two belts (buff leather and lace).

Of course, the Scottish regiments resisted these changes in 1902; further, going back to 1855, the Highland regiments refused to give up their sword crossbelts while everyone else at that time suspended their swords from the waistbelt.  It is thus unsurprising that the costs to Highland officers exceeded that of the rest of the line infantry.

[gordon92]

"I enclose an image of a soldier of the A&SH that shows the swinging six very well.  It was taken in India in 1912.  Notice also the undress frock and the diced flash and hackle on the Wolseley helmet." post #54

Another interesting image.  In 1912, the cuffs and shoulder straps were tailored to a regiment's facing color.  Prior to that only the collar on the undress frock was in facing color.  With the 1912 dating of the photo, this probably indicates that this is a soldier of the 91st; that battalion had just arrived in India from Malta on the next leg of its overseas tour.

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 13 June 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

FROGSMILE,  Thank you for the excellent images and the detailed clarification of pre-1902 levee order.  A follow-up question: Was it in 1902 that for Guards and Line Infantry (notwithstanding Scottish regiments) the waist sash replaced the shoulder sash?  What was the reason for this change?  I surmise that by moving the sash to the waist this eliminated  the cost for officers of acquiring/maintaining two belts (buff leather and lace).

Of course, the Scottish regiments resisted these changes in 1902; further, going back to 1855, the Highland regiments refused to give up their sword crossbelts while everyone else at that time suspended their swords from the waistbelt.  It is thus unsurprising that the costs to Highland officers exceeded that of the rest of the line infantry.

Yes, you surmised correctly and it was all about reducing cost to the officer, a cheap web belt, but with orris lace slings (suspended) was to be worn under the sash, thus showing only the sword carriage.  

For over a decade there had been complaints about the cost of outfitting an officer, both on initial commissioning and on promotion, when the cost of re-lacing a tunic for the new rank (and sometimes head dress) could be extortionate.  This came to a height after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War when a lot of young men from the middle classes and, who had served in the war in the militia, took the opportunity to join the Regular Army having found that they enjoyed the military life.

As well as the sash being moved (less Scottish) and the levee sash done away with (the latter excepting for Household troops), the different lacing for subalterns, captains and field officers was done away with too.  Many of the forms of Field Service order were also replaced by khaki service dress.  

The Patrol Jacket (also expensive) was replaced by the much simpler Blue Patrols at the same time.  The end result of all these changes was a significant reduction in the cost of kitting out an officer and contributed to more young men from the emerging middle classes taking a commission.

[gordon92]

Is there a Liverpool Scottish expert out there who could post sporran photos?

[FROGSMILE]

In keeping with your A&SH theme, here is one from the 1st Sutherland Rifle Volunteer Corps.

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[FROGSMILE]

And Liverpool Scottish in WW1.  The sporran was of dark fur with two tassels.

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•  Soldier - Copy.jpg   79.77K   0 downloads
•  Sporran06.jpg   11.33K   0 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

And colour image, showing the cantle badge for the later version used in WW2.

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•  $(KGrHqR,!lQE9HsfK)BUBPlvTbQqkg~~60_12.jpg   82.55K   0 downloads

[pbrydon]

Picture of Liverpool Scottish sporrans from my collection attached. Officers at the top.10th Kings on the left side,Liverpool Scotttish ( Camerons ) on the right.

The top  right sporran is interesting in that it has the name of an officer on the back who was killled in WW1 on the back,the regiment have changed the badge when the battalions affiliation changed and put a metal disc behind the new badge to hide the holes that were left when the original badge was removed.

P.B.

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•  sporana (175x350).jpg   76.65K   2 downloads

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 13 June 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

In keeping with your A&SH theme, here is one from the 1st Sutherland Rifle Volunteer Corps.

Fantastic old image, FROGSMILE.  The date window would be 1880-1899; according to Grierson in Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force, tassels were added to the sporran in 1899, hence, the noted dating.  The SRVC became a VB of the Seaforth Highlanders in 1881 when the Seaforth acquired Sutherland as a recruiting area.  The SRVC was pertpetuated in the TF and TA as the 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Bn Seaforth Highlanders; it was eventually disbanded in 1946.

[gordon92]

Thanks to pbrydon and FROGSMILE for posting the images of the Liverpool Scottish sporrans.  The black tassels with the grey body are very distinctive, and, with the Forbes tartan kilt, they present a very handsome combination.

When were the Liverpool Scottish moved from the King's to the Camerons?  I seem to remember 1937.  Correct?

[gordon92]

As some members have expressed interest in the orders of dress in Highland regiments. Perhaps some images would explain more than any text from Dress Regulations or Standing Orders.  So, here are three photos of the 2nd Bn The Black Watch taken at Peshawar in 1907 that exemplify orders of dress.  The first two are officers and the third is ORs.  I would stress that the dress detail displayed here is for the BW and only representative for the kilted Highland regiments in general; other regiments differed in terms of particulars.



The captions are only marginally visible; they read (L to R); Undress, Bandmaster - Review Order - Regimental Court Martial Order - Review Order hot weather - Levee dress - Dancing Dress hot weather - Dancing Dress cold weather - Review Order mounted officer.

The officer in the center wearing the white frock is the future FM Archibald Wavell.  Second from right is Fergus Bowes-Lyon, brother of the future Queen Consort; he was killed in 1915.

continued

[gordon92]

More BW officers orders of dress



captions (L to R): Summer Mess Kit - Mess Kit - Field Service Order - Drill Order Mounted Officer - Field Servive Order Mounted Officer - Drill Order Cold Weather - Drill Order Khaki - Review Order Sergt Major.

Clearly, the dress displayed here is for foreign service.  At home, the service dress jacket would replace the khaki drill jacket; a feather bonnet would be worn in place of the white Wolseley helmet (but not in Drill Order); and the glengarry would substitute for the khaki Wolseley helmet.

continued

[gordon92]

ORs orders of dress in BW



Captions (L to R): Private Review Order - Piper Drill Order - Cr Sergt Review Order - Private Walking Out Dress cold weather - Pipe Major Review Order - Lance Cpl Review Order hot weather - Drum Major Review order - Corporal Drill Order cold weather - Sergt Major Review Order - Bandsman Drill Order

Notice that the Pipe Major still wears the old Elwood pattern foreign service helmet.  Pipers preferred the old helmet because the narrow brim did not interfere with the drones on the pipes that rested on the left shoulder.  Eventually, pipers adapted and wore the Wolseley helmet.

As member FROGSMILE has noted, cost was an issue in the dress of officers.  The 1902 uniform changes that simplified dress (relieving financial pressure) affected the Highland regiments hardly at all; only the gold lace edging on the skirts of the doublet was removed for field officers, and the scarlet drill-jacket was replaced by a white version.

I hope all the above is of interest.

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 14 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Fantastic old image, FROGSMILE.  The date window would be 1880-1899; according to Grierson in Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force, tassels were added to the sporran in 1899, hence, the noted dating.  The SRVC became a VB of the Seaforth Highlanders in 1881 when the Seaforth acquired Sutherland as a recruiting area.  The SRVC was pertpetuated in the TF and TA as the 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Bn Seaforth Highlanders; it was eventually disbanded in 1946.

Thank you.  I confess that I should have looked that up and not assumed any connection with the A&SH, as I have the information readily to hand.  It just goes to show that with the British Regimental system one should never assume anything, as contrary to general impressions it has had several manifestations over several centuries and not everything is tidy and logical.

gordon92, on 14 June 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Thanks to pbrydon and FROGSMILE for posting the images of the Liverpool Scottish sporrans.  The black tassels with the grey body are very distinctive, and, with the Forbes tartan kilt, they present a very handsome combination.

When were the Liverpool Scottish moved from the King's to the Camerons?  I seem to remember 1937.  Correct?

Yes, it was in 1937.

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 14 June 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

ORs orders of dress in BW

Captions (L to R): Private Review Order - Piper Drill Order - Cr Sergt Review Order - Private Walking Out Dress cold weather - Pipe Major Review Order - Lance Cpl Review Order hot weather - Drum Major Review order - Corporal Drill Order cold weather - Sergt Major Review Order - Bandsman Drill Order

Notice that the Pipe Major still wears the old Elwood pattern foreign service helmet.  Pipers preferred the old helmet because the narrow brim did not interfere with the drones on the pipes that rested on the left shoulder.  Eventually, pipers adapted and wore the Wolseley helmet.

As member FROGSMILE has noted, cost was an issue in the dress of officers.  The 1902 uniform changes that simplified dress (relieving financial pressure) affected the Highland regiments hardly at all; only the gold lace edging on the skirts of the doublet was removed for field officers, and the scarlet drill-jacket was repaced by a white version.

I hope all the above is of interest.

These are excellent images and would also be of great interest in the VWF, where member JF42 is an afficionado of the BW.  Thank you for posting them.

For field service uniform there were also the sub sets of Marching Order and Musketry Order.

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 14 June 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

These are excellent images and would also be of great interest in the VWF, where member JF42 is an afficionado of the BW.  Thank you for posting them.

For field service uniform there were also the sub sets of Marching Order and Musketry Order.

I have just started looking at the VWF per your suggestion about a week ago.  I will post these images there in a day or so.

Please explain the difference between Marching Order and Musketry Order if you would, FROGSMILE.

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 14 June 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I have just started looking at the VWF per your suggestion about a week ago.  I will post these images there in a day or so.

Please explain the difference between Marching Order and Musketry Order if you would, FROGSMILE.

Marching Order comprised all of a soldiers personal equipment and first line ammunition supply, leaving only the second line 'reserve' ammunition to be carried on the battalions GS wagons.  As such it required the carriage of both large (previously valise) and small (previously haversack) web packs.  Fighting Order comprised the small pack (or haversack) carried on the back in place of the large pack, which was then carried on company level wagons.  Musketry Order comprised the soldiers web equipment and First Line ammunition, but less any pack at all.

All of these orders of dress required the carriage of a personal long arm 'zeroed' (i.e. calibrated) to the individual soldier.

Respirators (aka gas masks), when issued, were carried in the first two orders of dress, but generally not the last.

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 14 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Marching Order comprised all of a soldiers personal equipment and first line ammunition supply, leaving only the second line 'reserve' ammunition to be carried on the battalions GS wagons.  As such it required the carriage of both large (previously valise) and small (previously haversack) web packs.  Fighting Order comprised the small pack (or haversack) carried on the back in place of the large pack, which was then carried on company level wagons.  Musketry Order comprised the soldiers web equipment and First Line ammunition, but less any pack at all.

All of these orders required the carriage of a personal long arm 'zeroed' (i.e. calibrated) to the individual soldier.

Interesting! Thank you.  In the Scottish regiments (and perhaps Army-wide)) there was at one time a Full Dress Marching Order.  This appeared to involve a full pack with the Slade-Wallace equipment wearing the full dress doublet and full dress headdress.  I have never understood the utility of such an outfit.  Could you possibly explain further?