26 replies to this topic

[BiviBasha]

Hi,

I would like to know why there are different sizes in Brass Shoulder Titles? Are the Larger type (45cmx20cm) WW1 issue and the Smaller type (30cmx10cm) WW2 or post WW2 issue?

My Grt Grandfather served in the RGA during WW1, and my Grandfather served in RFA during WW2. I would like to mount Shoulder Titles besides their photograph to depict which Regiment they served in, but I am confused as to which size to get.

Also why are some Brass Shoulder Title  letters linked by a bar between them, and others don't except at the bottom?

Cheers

BiviBasha

[Staffsyeoman]

You would be incorrect in mounting an RFA title next to a WW2 picture as the branches were merged into a single body in 1924. The RHA retained a separate identity in WW2, but the RGA and the RFA disappeared.  The different size shoulder titles - and the bars between letters - despite some descriptions (like the nonsense that gets spoken about rotating wheels on cap badges) are makers' variations. For WW2 you would be better off with cloth shoulder titles - metal was worn in some circumstances,  but not universally.

[THE SHINY SEVENTH]

Im no expert here, but I think you may be getting confused with what may be the difference between a cap badge and shoulder badge. From my somewhat limited experience the cap badges are usually of the 45x20/25mm size, but that is not set in stone, RFA cap badges, for example, being quite a bit wider. Im sure someone far more knowledgable than I will be along to put your mind a rest. Be sure to post pictures of your finished project. Regards Sean

[BiviBasha]

Thank you for your replies!

Thats sorted out my confusion! The WW2 Royal Artillery cloth shoulder title would be arched cloth with Red lettering on a Black background?

My Grandad from Bournemouth joined up early 1930 I think with the Royal Artillery, TA (possibly in the RFA as this was his Regiment during and after WW2) but I have no confirmation of this except for an old photo. He saw service in India, North Western Frontier 1936-1937 and I believe on his return to Britain, was on exercise in the North East, Newcastle/Gateshead 1938 possibly in preparation for BEF 1939?

Awarded Campaign Medal, NORTH WEST FRONTIER 1936-37
This clasp was issued for service in operations largely against the Fakir of Ipi in Waziristan between 24th November 1936 and 16th December 1937.

Grandads (Phillip George Pittwood) North West Frontier (India) Medal is inscribed around the edge, with the following,

833570 GNR.P.G.PITTWOOD. R.A.

Ahhh theres the clue! Just R.A. But unless I find out which Regiment it could be either RFA of RGA?

Anyway I'm hoping to make a picture display from my Grt Grandad to present (myself) as we have all been in Service from Special Reserve to TA. I'm going to mount Cap Badge, shoulder title and miniature medals awarded beside each corresponding photo. Unfortunately I don't have Grt Grandad in his uniform. It won't be Authentically 100% accurate, but it will give future generations a good idea, lol. I will post pics when finished Spconnolly007.

Cheers

BiviBasha

[Staffsyeoman]

Bivi, to recap. He could not possibly have been RFA or RGA in the 1930s as these branches had ceased to exist in 1924.  For more details of the operations in India try to locate a copy of Sir Martin Farndale's History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery - the specific volume is called 'Between the Wars'.  Serving in India, a brass 'RA' title may well have been worn on a slide on the sholuder strap of the shirt. Early war it could have been a khaki slipover with black letters 'RA'. The curved Royal Artillery title (actually on dark blue, not black) came in from 1941.

[BiviBasha]

Thank you Staffsyeoman,
I will try find  a copy of Sir Martin Farndale's History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery. Hopefully get some clues as the Specific Regiment my grandad served with. After WW2 my grandad settled in Gateshead and remained with the RA after demob joining the TA when it reformed with 274th (Northumbrian) Field Regiment RA (TA). (I'm not sure if he served with this particular Regiment during the war, then known as 74th (Northumbrian) Field Regiment RA (TA), but their war record fits with the campaigns he saw action with. North Africa with the 8th Army and 7th Armoured Division and then France and Germany) Later he re-badged to REME attatched to the 274th RA (TA).

How long is it to wait  before WW2 service records are available to view?

Your advice/knowledge on shoulder titles has helped me to understand now about the different varieties and from when they were in service and the material used, thank you.

Cheers

BiviBasha

[GRUMPY]

Staffsyeoman, on 10 June 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

You would be incorrect in mounting an RFA title next to a WW2 picture as the branches were merged into a single body in 1924. The RHA retained a separate identity in WW2, but the RGA and the RFA disappeared.  The different size shoulder titles - and the bars between letters - despite some descriptions (like the nonsense that gets spoken about rotating wheels on cap badges) are makers' variations. For WW2 you would be better off with cloth shoulder titles - metal was worn in some circumstances,  but not universally.

Not entirely true, I think.

I believe greatcoat titles were, in some cases, made as large size, just as rank chevrons were. Open to correction as ever.

[BiviBasha]

Ahh thats interesting Grumpy When I was first looking to buy a shoulder title, I thought they would all be a standard size. Like the ones I was issued in the TA, eg RCT and RLC, Brass looking staybright type. I was surprised that the WW1 brass RGA shoulder title I bought is twice the size, as is the brass RFA title. Thats what sparked my interest in the Shoulder Titles Various sizes, and the enquiry on this post. Thank you.

I've found this interesting post http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=140367 on 'RGA Cloth Shoulder Titles' and  http://1914-1918.inv...opic=88885&st=0 on 'British Embroidered Shoulder Titles' and a good observation from Grumpy!

Cheers

BiviBasha

[BiviBasha]

I heard someone say the different size S/T were due to Ordinary Ranks having the Larger type and the Smaller-Regular size for the Officers? I'm not so sure? I like the Great Coat idea.

Cheers

BiviBasha

[Grovetown]

BiviBasha, on 14 June 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I heard someone say the different size S/T were due to Ordinary Ranks having the Larger type and the Smaller-Regular size for the Officers? I'm not so sure? I like the Great Coat idea.

Cheers

BiviBasha

In WW1, officers didn't wear shoulder titles on service dress.

There were some local exceptions as I gather from forum member and Gallipoli author Krithia that, to some extent, they were worn by officers in Gallipoli and the MEF. That wasn't regulation and not seen outside those particular fronts.

Post WW1, Westlake - IIRC - illustrates different sizes for ORs and officers; and for greatcoats.

Cheers,

GT.

[GRUMPY]

Grovetown, on 15 June 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

In WW1, officers didn't wear shoulder titles on service dress.

There were some local exceptions as I gather from forum member and Gallipoli author Krithia that, to some extent, they were worn by officers in Gallipoli and the MEF. That wasn't regulation and not seen outside those particular fronts.

Post WW1, Westlake - IIRC - illustrates different sizes for ORs and officers; and for greatcoats.

Cheers,

GT.

Grovetown is, as usual, correct with his gentle hint.

I have no evidence of large titles on greatcoats during the war. I have checked with PVCN 1913 and there is no provision.  Also checked Bodsworth, nothing found.

Not to say never, but uncommon if ever.

[BiviBasha]

Thanks guys for your research! It's all very intriguing!

Cheers

Bivibasha

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have 2 different size W.YORKS shoulder titles, both worn by the same man during WW1. You also find large A.C.C. titles being sold as WW1 Army Cyclist Corps, absolute tosh, they are WW2 and post WW2, Army Catering Corp and still worn on whites until the 1970's. The stocks being sold off in the 80's.

[BiviBasha]

Thanks Auchonvillerssomme, I've seen REME brass shoulder titles sold as WW1 titles, but the REME wasn't formed until WW2. I'm glad you comfirmed the W.Yorks s/t of both sizes were worn by the same soldier Perhaps they were issused for the different dress uniforms, or including the Great Coat

Cheers

Bivibasha

[auchonvillerssomme]

I don't think so, I don't know why there would have been a need for a different size on the greatcoat, somewhere on here there is a list of clothing issued and it includes ST's but I don't recall them being different sizes.

[GRUMPY]

auchonvillerssomme, on 17 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I don't think so, I don't know why there would have been a need for a different size on the greatcoat, somewhere on here there is a list of clothing issued and it includes ST's but I don't recall them being different sizes.

I am fairly sure that rankings were indeed a larger size, away from sources, I think Bodsworth shows them.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I'm not convinced these 2 sizes of ST's were issued for seperately for tunic and greatcoat, unless you compare the 2 side by side it is difficult to differentiate and the larger is about 3/4 the size of the RGA, RHA titles which were worn on tunics and greatcoats. I would have thought if there was a difference then the difference would be universal. I don't believe that the clothing regulations stated the size of the ST just on what tunics/jackets/coats it should be worn on and its position, but open to be corrected.

Never say never though, I last wore brass shoulder titles on No6 dress in Hong Kong in 1983, as did the rest of the parade, but I would guess that opinion and AO's probably says they were or should have been anodised

Attached Files

•  Wyorks.jpg   79.72K   1 downloads

[GRUMPY]

"I don't believe that the clothing regulations stated the size of the ST"

correct: they do not, no need, because every item had a sealed pattern.

[BiviBasha]

Ok here is my collection of Shoulder Titles. The largest Brass Title being the RFA, then the RGA & RA. The smaller Brass RFA, (almost half the size of the larger RFA). Then the REME (unkown material & date). And last but not least, RCT & RLC which I was issued with in the TA, and worn with working dress, Jumper and Shirt epaulettes (late 80's early 90's)

Cheers

BiviBasha


http://imageshack.us.../image0370.jpg/

[auchonvillerssomme]

BB Is the RLC in brass (gilding metal) or anodised?

Mick

[BiviBasha]

Thanx Grumpy, I hadn't heard of Sealed Patterns before.

'Sealed Patterns are examples of approved badges, buttons, cloth and styles. They were kept by the War Office as standards to be adhered to in uniform and were referred to by manufacturers and officers.'

So for my project, my Grt Grandad served in the Hants Regiment and RGA during WW1 as a Private/Gunner, and my Grandad in the RA in India 1936-1937 as a Gunner and also served during WW2.

Would the brass curved Hants and large RGA be authentic for my Grt Grandad, and the large RA for my Grandad in India, from the Picture in the link above?

Cheers

Bivibasha

[BiviBasha]

Hi Mick, Ermm I'm no expert but the REME, RCT and RLC aren't brass. Possibly anodised? lol. They feel much lighter, but do have a metal ring to them when tapped.

Cheers

BiviBasha

[auchonvillerssomme]

We need to see the sealed pattern cards for the shoulder titles, telling us what uniform the different shoulder titles are used on.

[Chief_Chum]

 ACC.jpg   47.26K   4 downloads

"You also find large A.C.C. titles being sold as WW1 Army Cyclist Corps, absolute tosh, they are WW2 and post WW2, Army Catering Corp and still worn on whites until the 1970's. The stocks being sold off in the 80's."

Sorry to disagree auchonvillerssomme but it's not absolute tosh at all!

I don't doubt that plenty of the larger ones were also worn by the Army Catering Corps later but we spent plenty of time researching the ACC before the Khaki Chums' Army Cyclist Corps Tour in 1998 and found plenty of evidence of large brass "ACC" titles being worn by Army Cyclist Corps men during The Great War.

I can't find my original copy but this photograph is in the IWM collection and, at full size, the ACC titles can clearly be seen on some of the men.

Cheers,

Taff

[auchonvillerssomme]

Taff, I have heard the arguments about ACC ST's being worn or not worn by The Army Cyclist Corps for years (as you have) but if you have satisfied yourselves that they were worn then I'm not going to disagree with you, I know you are perfectionists and do nothing lightly. But that wasn't the real point I was making, attributing the large ACC ST's without referencing the fact they were worn by the Army Catering Corps is misleading and the chances are that those that came on the market in large numbers were from the ACC QM stores. My reference for the Army Catering Corps is a direct one, my father in law was WO1 ACC until 1980.

That being said I would be interested in seeing a photograph of the Army Cyclist Corp wearing ACC ST's, that would settle a few arguments.