15 replies to this topic

[hunt]

Hi there, could anyone please enlighten me as to what were the penalties given out to soldiers at a court martial hearing, who were classed as deserters? I have found on my Great Grandfathers medal roll card, written in ink, the statement "Deserted, 1918," but I know that he lived till he was 80yrs old! Would all classed with desertion be court martialled? Would they also be dishonourably discharged from their regiment? All I know from researching my family history is that his son died at home in November,1917, aged 7yrs, then unfortunately his daughter died in June, 1918, suddenly at the age of 16yrs and this, I beleive, is about the same time he was stated as deserting, presumably finding his way home? Its just that word "Deserted" fills me with dread,.....mixed emotions, as I come from a family steeped in military history, from the Peninsular Wars, the Crimean, etc. through to Afghanastan in the present conflict there. Sorry for rattling on a bit! Any info whatsoever would be much appreciated, many thanks, RWH.

[DavidB]

Hi there Hunt,
  and welcome to the forum.  It must be remembered that desertion, whilst carrying a maximum penalty of death if convicted, other punishments

could also be awarded, probably depending on the intent and circumstances surrounding the actual desertion. Also of the thousands of courts martial convened

for desertion during this period only 300 or so actual executions were carried out, many more being commuted to a period of imprisonment.

a good read on the meaning of desertion can be found in the link below.

  http://www.1914-1918.net/crime.htm

If your g/g/fathers service papers are still extant it would give you the (brief) details as to what punishment, if any was awarded, but as it seems that he deserted

as a result of his childrens death it is also conceivable that he may not have even gone to court martial.

[Old Tom]

A passing thought! If he deserted at the end of the war, I suppose it is possible that that he was not found by the army.

Old Tom

[raysearcher]

Here one I have recently researched
initally sentenced to penal servitude for life

Private JOHN PAUL
8530 2nd Bn Durham Light Infantry (C Coy)   (previously 30669 Northumberland Fusiliers)
A pre war regular soldier John was called up from army reserves at the outbreak of the war
His service records indicates that his was a bit of a loose cannon with numerous convictions for drunkenness
and being absent without leave
John was finally tried by the General Court Martial and sentenced to penal servitude for life for desertion on 12/07/17
the sentence on the 19/07/1917 was commuted  to 15 years penal servitude and suspended , John was sent to the front
John was wounded in action (GSW Chest + Groin) and died of his wounds on 23rd September 1917
at number 33 Casualty Clearing Station France aged 31
He was the only son of John and Margaret Paul of Middlesbrough and the husband of Elizabeth Paul (nee Grey)
of 17 Warren Street Middlesbrough. The couple married in Middlesbrough in 1915
His widow Elizabeth married Charles Patrick in Middlesbrough in 1919  
John can be found on the 1901 census residing with his parents at 13 Adam Street Middlesbrough
Born Middlesbrough enlisted Stockton
BETHUNE TOWN CEMETERY

regards Ray

[hunt]

Thanks for the replies gents, is it possible that if found at home, he was court martialed, then, because of the circumstances, was "let-off" & not sent back to the front just as Ray has mentioned in the last reply? I dont think he went into hiding or anything like that & I certainly have no evidence of him serving a penal sentence! The recollections of family members past say that he was proud to have served & stated that he spoke of the war regularly! Just a pity that his service records cant be found.....they could possibly answer a lot of unanswered questions & its really doing my head in not knowing, haha! RWH

[nthornton19179]

Maybe he deserted after hostilities had ended?

This certainly happened. Men were frustrated at not been sent home sooner. It could take months for them to get their discharge.


With regards to his children passing away - He probably would not have been granted compassionate leave. There's a mention of this in a book called 'The quick and the dead' by Richard Van Emden. He states that the Armys way of looking at it was 'the nrelative is dead so what's the point of him going back, he can't change it or help in any way'.

I have the service papers for a soldier whose wife was found dead on their bedroom floor in 1915. He was informed by letter (which features in his records)...He replied by asking what will happen to his children. I don't know if he applied for leave but if so he didn't get it.

Neil

[IRC Kevin]

The punishments given to soldiers who deserted seems to have varied enormously, depending on who, when and where from. In one of the battalions I'm researching one man arrived in mid July 16, whilst the battalion was out of the line, spent less than 3 days in the trenches and deserted when he was sent off to bombing school- arrived, dumped his kit and walked off. He was shot.

Another, a sergeant, deserted from a home posting (This posting was given after he had been wounded for the 3rd time). He was demoted to corporal as punishment. He then deserted again and was bust down to private and sent back to France. In France, he is promoted back to corporal and then actually deserted from the trenches. The papers for his FGCM have 'desertion' crossed out and AWOL inserted (he'd been on the run for a month and was picked up many miles from where he'd left the lines) His sentence this time was 56 days detention- a lucky man and possibly the chaps in charge recognised he'd been through the mill and treated him as leniently as they could.

Another deserted from home leave. Was picked up and sentenced to 2 years hard labour. Sentence was commuted and he was sent back to France. Deserted again and was given 5 years hard labour (served 2 years and released in 1920)

It may just be coincidence, but the majority of deserters from the three TF battalions I'm looking at came from the nearby big cities of Liverpool and Manchester and not from the smaller, more parochial towns that most of the recruits came from. The Army didn't seem to bother as much about those who deserted after the end of the War. Punishments are smaller- 56 days seems to be a fair average and deserters have much less chance of being caught as the towns aren't full of police checking soldiers' (and men of miltary age) papers at stations and public venues. Those caught and who did their time seem to have been discharged in the normal way. What is clear from the number of letters in service records is the importance of discharge papers for anyone looking for a job or trying to claim any sort of assistance as a result of poverty. These unlucky men who'd lost their papers had to go through a whole rigmarole involving magistrates or police to get a certified proof of service.   Deserters must have struggled here.

[centurion]

Most men sentenced to death for desertion had their sentences suspended and went back to the front. Some ended up in the CWGCs records, some survived, some went on to win medals and some deserted again and were shown much less leniency second time around

[Perth Digger]

One man I've been looking at deserted in May 1918 by not returning from home leave.  He had still not been caught by October when a court of inquiry was held and I presume he got away with it.  In 1928 he wrote to the WO asking for his medals and gave his address!  He must have been pretty confident that no-one would want him arrested.  Whether he got his medals is another matter.

Mike

[James]

RWH
Have you got your relatives details, unit etc?

[centurion]

Perth Digger, on 05 August 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

One man I've been looking at deserted in May 1918 by not returning from home leave.  He had still not been caught by October when a court of inquiry was held and I presume he got away with it.  In 1928 he wrote to the WO asking for his medals and gave his address!  He must have been pretty confident that no-one would want him arrested.  Whether he got his medals is another matter.

Mike

I believe there was an amnesty post war but his medals might still have been withheld.

[ss002d6252]

Hansard from 1928 suggests that no amnesty was given but the men were discharged without further punishment - http://hansard.millb...19210613_CWA_64

[centurion]

ss002d6252, on 05 August 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Hansard from 1928 suggests that no amnesty was given but the men were discharged without further punishment - http://hansard.millb...19210613_CWA_64

A de facto amnesty rather than a de jure one!

This thread contains a whole series of parliamentary exchanges on the subject http://1914-1918.inv...31

[ss002d6252]

Thanks.

Quote

A de facto amnesty rather than a de jure one!

There's always round a little problem but I can imagine there was little willing to drag the process out.

[centurion]

In the USA there is no statute of limitation on desertion and there are today men who have been on the run for 40+ years. Makes The Fugitive a short term sort of guy.

[Perth Digger]

I wondered about an amnesty after posting it.  The man's name was Dabin, of the RWKs.