14 replies to this topic

[Phil Wood]

Not sure which forum this should go in - so here we are.

I have a report of the death in March 1916 of a guardsman (3rd Batt, Grenadiers) in a training accident "his detachment being now attached to the Royal Flying Corps under the Earl of Craven".

I can't find much about the Earl online - though he was evidently Captain of the Yeoman of the Guard 1911-15.

What role did he play in the RFC? Or was he commanding the Guards detachment?

[pierssc]

I think the sense could have been meant to be "his detachment, under the Earl of Craven, being now attached to the Royal Flying Corps."  Maybe attached for guard duties at an aerodrome?

[HERITAGE PLUS]

William George Robert Craven, 4th Earl of Craven was born on 16 December 1868. He was the son of George Grimston Craven, 3rd Earl of Craven and Hon. Evelyn Laura Barrington.  He married Cornelia Martin, daughter of Bradley Martin and Cornelia Sherman, on 18 April 1893 at Grace Church, New York City, New York, U.S.A.. He died on 9 July 1921 at age 52 at Cowes, Isle of Wight, England, accidentally drowned. He was buried on 14 July 1921 at Hampsted Marshall, Berkshire, England.

He was educated between 1882 and 1884 at England. He succeeded to the title of 4th Viscount Uffington, co. Berkshire [U.K., 1801] on 7 December 1883.  He succeeded to the title of 4th Earl of Craven [U.K., 1801] on 7 December 1883.  He succeeded to the title of 10th Baron Craven of Hampsted Marshall, Berkshire [E., 1627] on 7 December 1883.

He gained the rank of Captain in the service of the Berkshire Yeomanry Cavalry. He held the office of Aide-de-Camp to the Viceroy of Ireland between 1890 and 1892. He was decorated with the award of Order of the Crown of Belgium. He was decorated with the award of Legion of Honour. He held the office of Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard between 1911 and 1915. He held the office of Government Whip of the House of Lords in November 1912. He was invested as a Officer, Order of the British Empire (O.B.E.) in 1919. He held the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Warwickshire.

[old owl]

Hi Piers,

In the Dec 1915 Army List, the Earl of Craven (W.G.R.Craven) is shown under the Special Lists ref 2673f with the rank of Captain.  He has no employment classification against his name, but interestingly the chap above him and one a couple below him in the list are categorised: 'Whilst Flight Commander RFC MW'--not sure what the MW indicates?

He is also shown under ref 2472, as President of the Warwick Territorial Force Association.

I cannot really help a lot more at this stage but will see if I can find mention of him elsewhere.

Robert

[old owl]

I think that his son G.W.B.Craven became the 5th Earl of Craven (also Viscount Uffington).  He has 2 x MIC for WW1 but he appears to have served with the Hampshire Regt and was only entitled to a SWB but no campaign medals.  His rank was 2/Lieut.

Not sure if your reference may relate to him, although there does not appear to be any evidence of this!

Robert

[pierssc]

Craven (4th Earl)  was still in the Army (General List) in 1919 so if he was in the RFC he didn't go to the RAF.... http://www.london-ga...pplements/13511

[Phil Wood]

I'm afraid I just get more confused - what was a Grenadier Guardsman doing with the Earl of Craven and  the RFC? Here is the newspaper item that started me thinking:
Newbury Weekly News 16 Mar 1916 p8 – Local War Notes

Mr and Mrs Brown, of 47, Northbrook-street, were the recipients of the sad intelligence on Sunday that their eldest son, Pte C W T Brown, 21438, 3^rd Batt, Grenadier Guards, had died in the Lahore British General Hospital, Calais, on March 11^th , from injuries to the head and abdomen caused by an accident with a bomb. The young fellow had been serving as a bomber in his battalion, and had been through almost all of the big engagements since he left England some eight months ago, and it seems particularly unfortunate he should have met his death in this way, when well back from the firing line, his detachment being now attached to the Royal Flying Corps under the Earl of Craven. Pte Brown was only 20 years of age, and was one of the number who enlisted at a recruiting meeting in Newbury Corn Exchange which was addressed by a lady speaker. Prior to this, he had worked at Messrs W H Smith and Sons’ printing works being in the last year of his apprenticeship. Mr and Mrs Brown received official notification from the War Office on Tuesday morning, but no details are yet to hand as to the cause of his death, except as briefly stated in the official notice.

Reading between the lines I am guessing the Guardsman was giving bombing training - to the RFC? Craven seems to have been one of those well connected aristo/politicos who was determined to do his bit - thus providing a major headache to the poor chaps who had to find somewhere to put him where he wouldn't do too much harm. I guess commandant of a bombing school outside Calais might have fitted the bill nicely.

The Cravens were well known in Newbury, their estates at Hampstead Marshall and Ashbury are close by - no doubt this is what prompted the paper to add the reference to the Earl.

[centurion]

Heritage Plus's post contains some confusions; The 4th Earl of Craven was Deputy Chief Whip in the House of Lords in the Asquith administration. This post holds the  title of Captain of the Sovereign's Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard (which allows a salary to be paid as the latter is a "Ministry of the Royal Household") so the two are held simultaneously and not consecutively. On Lloyd George taking over he was out on his ear and he was given a commission as a temporary captain on the General Staff in which capacity he served in France, the Balkans and Egypt.

He appears to have had nothing to do with commanding any element of the  RFC much less a bombing school.

Could the local paper have got it wrong? Sadly such errors appear all too commonly.

[bingo]

old owl, on 31 July 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

categorised: 'Whilst Flight Commander RFC MW'--not sure what the MW indicates?

MW stands for Military Wing

Steen

[Phil Wood]

The paper could, of course, have got it wrong - it wouldn't be the first time, or the last. But, given the local connections of the deceased and Lord Craven it would be a bigger than average mistake.

[centurion]

bingo, on 31 July 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

MW stands for Military Wing

Steen

RFC NW was naval wing ie RNAS.this nomenclature seems to have ceased to be used in general even before WW1 broke out.

[centurion]

Phil Wood, on 31 July 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

The paper could, of course, have got it wrong - it wouldn't be the first time, or the last. But, given the local connections of the deceased and Lord Craven it would be a bigger than average mistake.

Historically the Cravens had links to the G Guards and  I think that there were still some associations with the regiment on a social and honourary level - this may have led to assumptions being made

[old owl]

centurion, on 31 July 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

RFC NW was naval wing ie RNAS.this nomenclature seems to have ceased to be used in general even before WW1 broke out.

This may well be true, but I suppose that they still had to maintain MW in the Army Lists for obvious reasons, even up to and including the October,1917 issue and possibly right up to the formation of the RAF?  It has certainly disappeared by February 1919.

[centurion]

old owl, on 01 August 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

This may well be true, but I suppose that they still had to maintain MW in the Army Lists for obvious reasons, even up to and including the October,1917 issue and possibly right up to the formation of the RAF?  It has certainly disappeared by February 1919.

I'm sure you're correct in saying that they maintained it but the reasons don't seem at all obvious.

[centurion]

A sort of aside  - did you know that the Craven A cigarette was named for the 4th Earl? This was the first international cigarette brand name. Carreras already marketed Craven Mixture named after the 3rd Earl for whom it was created.