28 replies to this topic

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

I am crossposting this into this subforum in the hopes that someone might recognize where this photo was taken.  I know, I huge long shot, but if I don't ask, I will certainly never know!



The caption on the back says, vaguely, "Minentrichter 7 mtr tief".  That's all I have to go on.

Thoughts?

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

I don't know if it will help, but I did a high resolution scan of the men in the photo:





The other man from the crater:

[ph0ebus]

That last fellow appears to be from FAR 43, as it certainly looks like he has a 43 on his schulterklappen.  The officer in the shell hole is certainly interesting; I cannot make heads or tails of his uniform details at first look.  No ribbon for him, but he certainly has that far-off stare.

Is it just me, or does the officer on the rim of the crater with the EKI appear to be wearing a watch?

Also, have a look at this picture...is that a shell case to the left of the officer in the crater?  I included his leg for the sense of scale.



Daniel

[TRAJAN]

Uniforms are not my thing but I'm certain I've seen something indicating that the style of those cuffs - as worn by one of the guys in the hole and three on the men on the top - are significant, so come on one of you uniform guys, and help out phoebus out of his mystery (sic!)!

[ph0ebus]

TRAJAN, on 12 June 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Uniforms are not my thing but I'm certain I've seen something indicating that the style of those cuffs - as worn by one of the guys in the hole and three on the men on the top - are significant, so come on one of you uniform guys, and help out phoebus out of his mystery (sic!)!

I'm pretty bad still at identifying uniform types by sight.  I have a copy of Osprey's The German Army 1914-1918 which I will consult and see if any of the uniforms in there seem to match.  Of course, if someone knows offhand, I would be welcome for the insight!

Daniel

[centurion]

TRAJAN, on 12 June 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Uniforms are not my thing but I'm certain I've seen something indicating that the style of those cuffs - as worn by one of the guys in the hole and three on the men on the top - are significant, so come on one of you uniform guys, and help out phoebus out of his mystery (sic!)!

Weren't Swedish cuffs with two buttons the mark of guards regiments, staff and some specialist units?

Experienced men, three of them have the iron cross, two with the IC 2nd  class and one has both 2nd and 1st class ICs

[mebu]

None of the men are armed, and look quite casual, and there are no signs of trenches, equipment etc around them.

Judging by the height of the men, the hole may be rather more than 7m deep.

Possibly a test blow from a 7m deep working.

Simon Jones may be a good source of info.

Peter

[TEW]

As far as the two button cuffs go there is another post by Ph0ebus from Mar 5 2011 in which another member has linked an image showing 2 Kurhessisches of Feld-Artillerie-Regt. Nr.47

Then one from drakegoodman's collection of FAR 43

TEW

[ph0ebus]

Hi,

Thanks, TEW... I know that one, if not all, men are probably from FAR 43...which, if correct, dates the photo from between Feb. 9 1916 and the Armistice....a large swath of time!  That literally leaves a lot of ground to cover in terms of *where* this photo may have been taken.

Given Emanuel was with a FAR unit would one of their shells been capable of making a crater this size?  Or would a working be more likely?

Daniel

[Siege Gunner]

ph0ebus, on 12 June 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Given Emanuel was with a FAR unit would one of their shells been capable of making a crater this size?  Or would a working be more likely?

Not a shell hole, Dan, as 'Minentrichter' means 'mine crater'.

[ph0ebus]

Siege Gunner, on 12 June 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Not a shell hole, Dan, as 'Minentrichter' means 'mine crater'.

Thanks, Mick!  I wonder what they were doing there?  FAR Units were not involved with mines...were they?  Or perhaps they came across the mine crater and took advantage of a photo op...

Daniel

[mebu]

I don't know much about uniforms........but I don't think they just came across this crater. As suggested above, it is not in the front line, and does not look fought over. Somewhere behind the front,  A mine crater certainly, as per the caption.

So, still possibility of trial blow, either by FAR or engineers.

Peter

[centurion]

mebu, on 12 June 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't know much about uniforms........but I don't think they just came across this crater. As suggested above, it is not in the front line, and does not look fought over.

Unless there were some very big caterpillars around those trees have been subjected to significant shell fire so it may well have been fought over.

[mebu]

Can't say it hasn't been fought over.....but still no sign of major battle detritus, and mining was mainly on static fronts. Bearing in mind it's winter (snow on ground) and trees are bare, it still doesn't look like a former front line position. Are there many wooded areas where mining took place and then were well behind German lines?.

Nothing definive, just a suggestion.

Peter

[centurion]

mebu, on 12 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Can't say it hasn't been fought over.....but still no sign of major battle detritus, and mining was mainly on static fronts. Bearing in mind it's winter (snow on ground) and trees are bare,

And branchless

[ph0ebus]

Other than the 'shell casing' there are other man-made objects in the crater here and there that I cannot identify.  Would it be helpful to post pictures of those as well?

[ph0ebus]

Well, in case they are, here's a few.  One item which I found four of in said crater is, for lack of a better description, a 'striped stick':



-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Or, this one:



A cylinder of some sort:

[ph0ebus]

I just noticed that there also appears to be what looks like an empty ammo box laying atop the tree stump on the left hand side of the photo.

-Daniel

[TEW]

Yesterday I thought I could see a Champagne bottle behind the officer in the crater, follow the direction his left arm makes. Wasn't too sure about the 'cylinder' but the striped stick has to be man made.

Other thoughts were, crater is very fresh, newly created. Very little sign of it backfilling itself naturally. Looks quite loose sided and would change a lot with one downpour. Lots of bits of shattered tree in the crater where they rained down after the explosion, these too would migrate downwards given the chance. Possibly some sawn timber right hand side centre of photo. Given that there seems to be no other obvious trenches it's not likely to be an allied mining type mine crater is it? On the scale of things it's a minuscule mine crater? Did wonder if it was a shell crater even though it states 'mine crater'

Men on the lip are very nonchalant, just out for a stroll with their sticks, no fear of snipers or enemy in general.
TEW

[towisuk]

I'm with Norman, the trees show signs of having been involved in some military action, so somewhere near the front line is my guess...but where?, a very difficult one...
regards
Tom

[roel22]

Like Peter I'd say this is the result from a test blow. The men don't show any fear of running into the enemy, they carry no weapons and appear to be very relaxed. Also the trees in the background look undisturbed. There's no foliage, but the pic could be taken in autumn of winter (one of the men is wearing gloves). The trees in the foreground do look to have taken a nasty blow, but that's probably a result of the explosion that caused the crater.

Roel

[crickhollow]

The surrounding distant woodland does not show much evidence of artillery destruction. Overall this small area of  landscape does not appear to be a contested stronghold and the relaxed appearance of the German soldiers suggests this might have been a test explosion some distance from the front line- maybe even in Germany.
I wonder how the mine was laid?  Using a tunnel approach of some sort?

C.

[egbert]

I do not think the crater originates from an underground mine warfare. The German word Minentrichter is very well used for 28cm shells or from Schwere Minenwerfer as well. I have seen labeling like this, damaged inflicted by heavy guns or Minenwerfer. The damage might well be the result of a 28cm gun/howitzer firing from  distance

[ph0ebus]

In reading the replies so far, I'm left with the nagging questions of why, if a practice mine blow, would FAR 43 be involved and if a shell hole, why climb in it for a photo op?  Why are the higher-ups on the rim so interested?  Is a hole of this size and depth so unusual?

If it is ground that was fought over, clearly at the time of the photo the line had moved pretty far away based on their level of casualness they are demonstrating.

Too bad there is nothing in the landscape that even hints at a possible location, at least to my untrained eye...

I am also hoping someone will weigh in on the 'shell casing' (or whatever it is) by the officer's leg in the hole as maybe that will aid our efforts, at least in terms of maybe boosting the arguement this is fought-over ground.

Daniel