17 replies to this topic

[egbert]

Anybody has a trenchmap or further explanation of said unique trench structure?

[WilliamRev]

I'm slightly confused (not unusual for me ) but do you mean the Quadrilateral, 700 metres east of Guinchy (probably not I'm guessing) or the Quantangle SOUTHwest of Bazentin-le-petit (about 400 metres southwest of Mametz Wood)? NORTHwest of Bazentin-le-Petit would put it near Pozieres - is that where you mean? Or is ther another structure called Quadrilateral?

William

[Jim Smithson]

Do you mean this Egbert?

If so it only appears after July 1st 1916 but as to what it is.......???

JIm

Forgot to say, this is the July 1916 map (from Linesman)

Attached Images

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[skipman]

If it's any use, the same map from McMaster http://lt1.mcmaster....map_id=127

Mike

[egbert]

Jim et all: thats exactly the spot I consider. I think my aerial might be that spot (discussed earlier here     http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143314&hl=courcelette. Turn the aerial below by 90 degrees for north referencing. I believe the big white spot is Courcelette and the quadri is in the bottom part. My apologies for the really bad quality, but had to downsize it to 100kB. Please take into consideration that the aerial is set together from 3 photos "distortion guaranteed"

[WilliamRev]

Ah yes, I see it now on my map, which has the same symbol as Jim's - it doesn't appear on the key and I took it for the fortified machine-gun post, west of Bezantin-le-Petit, which so troubled the 19th Brigade 21st-24th July 1916. But I am a relative beginner to the Somme, and I'm sure others will have better ideas,

William

[egbert]

Jim Smithson, on 21 June 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Do you mean this Egbert?

If so it only appears after July 1st 1916 but as to what it is.......???



Forgot to say, this is the July 1916 map (from Linesman)

Jim, I am still not ruling out your map clues. Could you post or send me exactly from this snippet location ( Bazentin Wood) further due north up to and including Courcelette, same scale please?

[egbert]

Here is a larger scale of said aerial with some remarks

[Jim Smithson]

egbert

I can't get your photo to fit the area you think.  The trench lines north of Bazentin only reach the complexity you see in the photo in September 16 and then they are all on an east-west axis.  The ones heading NNW are not on the map.  Also if the polygon you mark is where you have it (and on the map above) then it is KOYLI Redoubt which, on the September map, is connected to a communication trench Scotch Alley, not in the way shown on the photo.  The scale also does not place Courcelette where you put it, it can be Martinpuich at best.

The date all seems wrong as well.  In May 1916 there were nowhere near as many trenches in the area north of Batentin.  I think you are in the wrong area, maybe led by that polygon shape.  Are you sure it is from the Somme area?  If so I will look around May1916 maps and see if it could be somewhere else.  

Jim

[egbert]

Jim, I am not sure at all. I just want to close this 3 year enigma in my hands. According to the co-ordinates 1821 and the author's picture signage it is next to Courcelette. But yes nothing matches really. In another thread here on GWF I posted the same aerial thinking it is near Reims. But no trenchmaps either match. This is such a characteristic-feature aerial and there must be an answer.
Clearly I see a long straight road and a parallel RR, crossing the road towards the white spot. And boy the quadrilateral that must be a prominent feature easy to detect -you think......

[towisuk]

It's a difficult one egbert....but I'll continue to pore over the trench maps mate.......

regards
Tom

[towisuk]

At first I looked at the position that Jim pointed out in post #3, but distance from what we assume to be Courcelette  in the photo montage, and the fact I can't find a map that shows anything like the pattern of the  trenches surrounding egberts mystery trench structure seen in the aerial, leads me to believe it is not the one we have identified as a "maybe".
I may be wrong (I very often am), but somehow it sits uneasy with me, and I don't believe we can say with any conviction that we have identified the position of egberts hexagon trench position
regards
Tom

[egbert]

So true Tom! I don't know where to look at elsewhere . Are these massive spurs a clue? Are they tank tracks, swarming out into tactical positions? also if you zoom into the picture you see distinct wood patterns, long, narrow woods.

[towisuk]

How sure are we of the location area of the aerial egbert??
Tom

[egbert]

Tom the aerial is signed as "west of Courcelette" by the photographer. And according to the etched co ordinates it should be there. But god knows how many different co ordinate systems the German service had. I own his collection of some 1000 photos and have noticed several substantial mistakes, labeling the aerials. So - we should not be tto sure , it can be anywhere at Somme. Here in this thread
http://1914-1918.inv...&hl=reims&st=25
we were also looking near Reims, but all efforts to no avail.

[towisuk]

Ok thanks for that egbert, I'll keep a look out for the distinctive trench shape when I'm going through my "Linesman" map system...
regards
Tom

[towisuk]

Is there a "going round the bend" club on this one egbert????
There is definitely a long stretch of trees about 20 metres wide shown in the photo's, but there are no such trees marked on any of my maps in the vicinity of Courcelette.
So I'm looking over the whole Somme front, and going cross-eyed at the same time................

How long did you say you've been trying to find this particular feature? 3 years!  lets hope we can get to the bottom of this one soon for sanity's sake.......

regards
Tom

[egbert]

Tom , 3 years here on GWF but a couple more in my 4 corners....
Well I rechecked the dates "my photographer" took pictures from the war. All 1916 pictures are from the Somme, the 1917 and 18 are from Champagne and the 1915 from Flanders. So this aerial should be somewhere from Somme. Intriguing though is the etched-in map quadrant 1821, which indeed is short of Courcelette (west) but I concur, the picture does not match the long wood features and the road pattern. I think I also see a RR line.
I looked for quite some while around the Reims-Berry-au-bac area because of the similar long stretched wood patterns......