13 replies to this topic

[alf mcm]

Can anyone tell me which Divisions the 1st Ayrshire R.H.A. served in, with approximate dates if possible?

Regards,

Alf McM

[nigelfe]

It's not always clear because there were two Ayrshire btys.  Both ended the war with 52 Div.  However, before that 1st Bty seem to have spent a lot of time with the Australian & NZ Mounted Division.  There was no Aust/NZ artilery with the ANZAC light horse/mounted formations in Palestine.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Alf McM

I think nigelfe is referring to 1st & 2nd Ayrshire Batteries Royal Field Artillery, which were part of the divisional artillery of 52 (Lowland) Division.

1/1st Ayrshire Battery RHA was part of the Lowland Mounted Brigade TF, but this was also attached to 52 Div in the second half of 1915 when it served at Cape Helles (Gallipoli). The Div wasd evacuated to Egypt at the beginning of Jan 1916 and the RHA battery joined the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division on  March 1916, as part of IV Brigade RHA (TF). The brigade was renumbered XVIII Bde RHA in July 1917 and it remained with the ANZ MD in Egypt and Palestine for the rest of the war.

There was a duplicate, 2/1 Ayrshire Battery RHA, but this served only in the UK.

(Sources: Order of Battle of Divisions, Parts 2A and 5A).

Hope this helps!

Ron

[David Porter]

Ron Clifton, on 22 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

1/1st Ayrshire Battery RHA was part of the Lowland Mounted Brigade TF, but this was also attached to 52 Div in the second half of 1915 when it served at Cape Helles (Gallipoli). The Div wasd evacuated to Egypt at the beginning of Jan 1916 and the RHA battery joined the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division on  March 1916,

(Sources: Order of Battle of Divisions, Parts 2A and 5A).

They must have been detached from Lowland Mounted Brigade TF when they went overseas as I can find no evidence of 1/1st Ayrshire RHA going to Gallipoli. They did not leave Cupar until February 9, 1916 sailing the following day from Southampton on the "Port Macquarie". They arrived in Alexandria on February 22, 1916 and, as it says above, joined ANZAC Mounted Division.

[alf mcm]

Many thanks to you all for your replies. I was a bit confused about the Battery being moved from Gallipoli to Egypt. This implies the Battery did not return to Scotland. You would think the Orders of Battle quuoted by Ron would be correct, but the Battery War Diary gives details of the journey from Cupar to Alexandria, as mentioned by David. So, they either did not go to Gallipoli, or returned to Scotland before going to Egypyt. I am still a bit confused!

Regards,

Alf McM

[michaeldr]

Just a couple of snippets adding to what David has said above

I am unable to find the 1^st Ayrshire RHA in the Gallipoli OH – the 1/1^st Lowland Mounted Brigade gets only one extremely brief reference and nothing about their artillery.

The first reference to them in Farndale is their appearance in an OoB for the EEF dated April 1916

[alf mcm]

Thanks Michael,
  It would seem that the Battery only served in Egypt, and was alwas attached to the ANZAC Mounted Division.

Regards,

Alf McM

[Ron Clifton]

Hello David and Michael

Thank you for confirming that the battery did not accompany the mounted brigade to Gallipoli. I knew that most of the yeomanry fought dismounted on the peninsula, but was uncertain as to whether their artillery were with them.

Ron

[nigelfe]

Farndale does not list any Ayrshire RHA battery as remaining in UK throughout the war.
He lists, under RHA, 1/Ayrshire and 2/Ayrshire (the former with 13-pr, the latter 15-pr) as being in 52 Div at the end of the war.  13-pr is entirely consistent with RHA and inconsistent with RFA.  That said he has them both in 260 Bde.

I think you'll find the Ayrshire bty at Cape Helles (ie Gallipoli) was a mountain bty RGA in 4 (Highland) Mtn Bde RGA.  The bty initially joined 29 Div but subsequently reverted to GHQ troops.  Its not clear what happened post Gallipoli, 4 Mtn Bde went to Macedonia, but the Ayrshire bty doesn't seem to have been with them (Farndale has Argyll).

For most of the war it's fairly clear from Farndale that the Ayrshire bty was part of 18 Bde RHA, which was the divisional artillery of the Aust & NZ Mounted Division, CRA B-G WD Nichol, who I assume was a RHA officer.  They were, of course, under command this division (via the CRA).

I often see the word 'attached' in posts on this site.  I assume this reflects mental confusion because in WW1 command relationships were simple, there was only 'command', although the CBSO did have 'executive control' , which seems to have been seen by some officers as a poor idea that confused the neatness of a chain of command.

[David Porter]

alf mcm, on 22 June 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

So, they either did not go to Gallipoli, or returned to Scotland before going to Egypyt. I am still a bit confused!

Alf,

Evidence that they did not go to Gallipoli is very thin on the ground but I think I've cracked it.
Within the many pages of the service record of Robert John Seeley, Ayrshire RHA No. 668, is this confession:

 AyrRHAconfess.jpg   85.13K   1 downloads

There are two more men I found from Ayrshire RHA who fraudulently enlisted in the 7th Scottish Rifles and they are Thomas Surgener 269 (who became 3177/266261) and Ralph McMahon 383 (who became 3178/266262). As far as I can see this puts 1/1st Ayrshire RHA in Scotland in November 1915.

[alf mcm]

Thanks Nigel,
  We now have an explanation for the 1st Ayrshire at Cape Helles, being mountain artillery.

Thanks David,
  More proof that 1st Ayrshire R.H.A. was in Scotland. I have searched for service records for Ayr R.H.A., but with no luck. I had assumed they were all destroyed, presumably being filed together. The ones you quote probably survivrd because they were filed together in 7th Scottish Rifles.

Regards,

Alf McM

[kevrow]

Quote, "I think you'll find the Ayrshire bty at Cape Helles (ie Gallipoli) was a mountain bty RGA in 4 (Highland) Mtn Bde RGA."

I have never seen an Ayrshire Bty. connected with the 4th Highland Mountain Bde. Their batteries were Agyll, Ross & Cromerty and Bute. What evidence is there that an Ayrshire Bty. (numbered or not) ever served at Helles? It would be interesting if they did. I would think that the 1/1 Ayrshire Bty. RHA diary would have the answer, at Kew under WO 95/4527 which covers Aug. 1914 to Jan 1916.

Kevin

[nigelfe]

You're correct Argyl not Ayr.  However, it's not clear that Bute were at Gallipoli, they don't seem to have joined the bde until it returned to Egypt.

[kevrow]

Quote, "However, it's not clear that Bute were at Gallipoli "

It wasn't, but around 80 gunners of that battery were.

Kevin