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[chrislock]

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Hi guys.

Whilst visiting Houthulst Belgian cemetery today I noticed the majority of soldiers had 2 medals displayed on the headstone face however, I also found a few with none and this chap with 4 medals plus rosettes!

Why none on a soldiers head stone who has fallen in battle and what are the 4 in the attachment please?

[old owl]

Hi Chris,

The first medal is the Order of Leopold II, the second is the Order of the Crown, the third is the Croix de Guerre and the fourth is the Croix Militaire(I think)!!?

Hope this helps.

Robert

[chrislock]

Thank you Robert. Can you also help me out here with the following questions please? Would any of these be gallantry awards or they all for merit and service offered or possibly both? What are the little rosettes or brevet stripe markings alongside the medals as they are absent on the medals on the majority of head stones?

Last but not least, why would some headstones show no medals whatsoever?

Sorry for the heap of questions Rob but I have now got the bit between my teeth so to speak!

[old owl]

chrislock, on 23 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Thank you Robert. Can you also help me out here with the following questions please? Would any of these be gallantry awards or they all for merit and service offered or possibly both? What are the little rosettes or brevet stripe markings alongside the medals as they are absent on the medals on the majority of head stones?

Last but not least, why would some headstones show no medals whatsoever?

Sorry for the heap of questions Rob but I have now got the bit between my teeth so to speak!

Hi Chris,

I think that both the Croix de Guerre and the Croix Militaire were awarded for 'gallantry in the face of the enemy'.  The two orders are strictly speaking not gallantry awards, however I am not too clear on this!!

I cannot help on the rossettes etc. Hopefully a Belgian collector may see this post and answer some of your queries more fully.

Robert

[Doc2]

I've seen this a lot in various Belgian cemeteries, while others have lots of graves without any medals shown-- it seems to vary based on the preferences of the commune in which the burial took place , as far as I can tell. I have come to the conclusion (without evidence) that there was no standard policy on a national level.   Doc

[CROONAERT]

There are actually 6 medals displayed on that headstone (or 7 if you include one that the chevron is hinting at). Is it to an officer aged at least 43 by any chance? (if so, then it would appear to depict a long serving soldier who was commissioned during his service rather than a man who enetered the army as an officer)...

The Order of Leopold I (officer division...as depicted by the rosette), Order of the Crown (again, officer division), Military Cross 2nd Class (with Military Decoration long service emblem), Croix de Guerre. The other two medals depicted are - 'V' - the Victory Medal and '14' - the commemorative war medal.

The Order of Leopold I and the Croix de Guerre, though gallantry medals in their own right, were also standard posthumous issues to field officers of the Belgian Army who died during their war service (with the Order of Leopold II and the Croix de Guerre being issued to the other ranks casualties) in much the same way that the French awarded the Medaille Militaire and Croix de Guerre to their own war dead.

Basically then, you have two gallantry medals (though these may have been automatic awards rather than for anything specific), two (possibly 3) long and/or meritorious service medals and two WW1 general service medals depicted.

Dave

[chrislock]

Hi Dave.

Thank you for your comprehensive response and thanks to all who have posted answers. Much appreciated indeed! Would you also know by any chance why some soldiers headstones show no medals or markings whatsoever? Surely if a soldier was killed in the service of his country he would be entitled to something? I have a pic on these headstones also but they are on another PC so I will have to include later.

I'm travelling to Prague for a week this afternoon so I will pick up this thread on my return.

Chris

[CROONAERT]

chrislock, on 25 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Would you also know by any chance why some soldiers headstones show no medals or markings whatsoever? Surely if a soldier was killed in the service of his country he would be entitled to something?

That, I don't know for certain, but, like with the IWGC, there was some input from the next of kin of the deceased over the details included on the grave markers. The inclusion of a religious symbol (or Belgian lion) on the Belgian tricolour was one example. The replacement of the standard Belgian bluestone headstone with the Flemish 'Joe English' cross was another (privately funded) example. Perhaps the display of medal entitlements was another choice? (as mentioned earlier, all Belgian war casualties had a standard medal entitlement even if nothing is shown on the grave marker... even the unknowns who ,if my own observations are correct, never show any entitlement either).

Dave

[chrislock]

Thanks Dave. Your posts confirm much of what I felt but could not be sure. To show you how confusing the situation is, even the Belgian military of today were unsure of the answers and forwarded my info requests onto the IFF Docs office. I am now awaiting an email response from Roger Baccarne who apparently is the man to speak to.

Your kindly supplied info will do much to confirm and more. Thankyou.

Doc and Old Owl, thank you also for your input.

Best wishes

Chris

[CROONAERT]

Chris...

Is your photo the grave of Major Desire Joseph GOFFIN of the 22e Linieregiment by any chance?

Dave

[CROONAERT]

chrislock, on 25 June 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I am now awaiting an email response from Roger Baccarne who apparently is the man to speak to.

Chris,

If all else fails, getting in touch with Urbain de Deyne (I have his address if needed... he lives in Ieper (well, he did in 2005 anyway!)) may prove fruitful. He's studied Belgian wargraves in depth and is the author of a book on Belgian wargraves in West Flanders ( 'De Belgische militaire begraafplaatsen en ereperken in West-Vlaanderen 1914-1918' ) which, though far from error-free, is a pretty comprehensive volume on the subject.

Dave

[Doc2]

Looking through photos again, I have the impression that medals on the stones are a lot more common in community/commune-run cemetery sections for "veterans" than in cemeteries for war dead.  Again, I have no idea if this is standard or by commune preference, but it certainly sticks in my mind as being observable.  It actually appears there is no nationwide standard.  Doc

[CROONAERT]

Doc,

I think that you'll find that the Belgian Ministry of Defence bluestone headstones with medals displayed are actually a lot more common than those that show none (for named casualties) in the official Belgian military cemeteries of both world wars (don't forget that it doesn't necessarily have to show an image of the actual medal to display an entitlement ('V' is the Victory medal, '14' in a circle  is the war medal, 'Y' is the Yser Medal, for example).

If pushed for an answer, I'd say that those with medals are the standard issue plaques and those without are those for which the NoK have specifically asked for them not to be included (or ,maybe, the Nok were asked for medals details and these are those who did not reply?).

Dave

[chrislock]

<sup>Excellent posts and thank you again guys and Dave, as always you are indeed correct on the ID of the man in question.

I have saved your your salient points and now have a much better picture of the Belgian system than I was previously.

Must go: I am currently on a week long Red Army tank action battlefield tour of Prague before Milena continues the tour into Russia itself. Unfortunately I must soon return to work....

Thanks again guys.

Chris</sup>

[CROONAERT]

chrislock, on 30 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

^{Excellent posts and thank you again guys and Dave, as always you are indeed correct on the ID of the man in question.}

Thanks Chris... That, therefore, confirms my theory in post# 6 (and also proves that one of my databases works well !!!!).... Goffin (born at Marchin-p-Hoei on 30th June 1865) originally joined the army as a private soldier in 1886. He was killed, aged 53, just south of Jonkershove as his regiment was attacking along the north-western edge of Houthulst Forest towards Houthulst village itself.

Dave

[chrislock]

Thank you Dave. Excellent info again. The local Inn just down the road from my house has photographs and stories of some of the men buried in the cemetery. I will call in and see if I can find more on this particular man and while I am at it I may just have a small beer or two!!

I have also today just received a Belgian military headstones confirmation document from Roger Verbeke in the IFF Docs office.
If anyone wishes for a copy please pm me your email addy and I will forward onto you. It is in Dutch but for those amongst us who speak no Dutch it will be easy to follow and it comes with the bonus of pictorial images and explanations of the medals and signage concerned.

Best wishes

Chris

[chrislock]

Dave.

I have just returned from Houthulst cemetery and I found another 4 senior officers with similar decorations and possibly even some being higher! If you pm me your email addy I will forward the medals document I received from the IFF docs office and images of the headstones I discovered today.

Chris

[CROONAERT]

Cheers Chris... PM sent (now I've worked out how to reactivate it... been switched off for months!)