17 replies to this topic

[Crunchy]

Hi all,

I am looking for a photograph of Turkish infantry on the march for inclusion in a book to be published later this year. I saw one in a book some time ago, with Turkish infantry marching towards the camera, but cannot find it.

Is anyone able to help out, or point me in the direction of where I might source one?

Regards
Chris

[michaeldr]

Chris

see 3^rd pic on 2^nd last line
http://www.canakkalemuzesi.com/defaultmain.asp?inc=galeri&intMuzeID=&intGaleriID=12&intTextID=0&recordnum=0&intPoetID=&intForumID=&intTopicID=&page=1&intRecordNum=32
There may be others in this collection
You will also have to drop them a line to get a copy without their watermark

Good luck
Michael

[shippingsteel]

Is this image from the net of any use - I can't recall the source or what claims there are to it. I borrowed it for 'research purposes' only.

Cheers, S>S

 Marching_mehmet.jpg   32.96K   3 downloads

[Crunchy]

Michael and Shipping Steel,

Many thanks for these. I greatly appreciate your help.

Regards
Chris

[Revan]

Hello,
I know a photograph by the Belgium news-paper "Le temps présent" #31 on 19 May 1915.

But not more information, the label is "Turkish infantry going to the front" and in French "Infanterie turque en route vers le front".
More, two photographs of turkish peoples.
Not more information about the photograph in a town, if you don't have I would can put here the photograph, but I don't know if there are some rights or not (1915 is far).

If no mistake by me, the photograph isn't on the Michael's link.
Greetings.

[Revan]

Sorry for the time, the photograph:



(Source: Belgium news-paper "Le temps présent" #31 - of the 19 May 1915).

I hope that helps you a little.

Best regards.
Nicolas.

[Crunchy]

Nicolas,

Thank you very much for your photograph.

Regards
Chris

[TRAJAN]

Great photo - but is it WW1 period? The soldiers are wearing fezzes, which (IIRC) were replaced from 1913 onwards by the bashlik cloth 'sun' helmet. That apart, does the newspaper indicate where the photo' was taken? I'm wondering if it is a 'stock image' from the time of the Balkan Wars...

Trajan

EDIT: Just had another look at the photo' - can't see any bolts to the rifles, so are they Peabody-Martini 1874's, second type with 'sabre' bayonet? In which case even less likley to be a WW1 photo as theTurk's had bolt-action Mausers by then.

EDIT02: Further examination suggests this is a prisoner escort party or something worse... The guy dressed like an iman in the centre, between the two files of soldiers, has a placard around his neck, presumably a notice detailing his offences...

[Revan]

TRAJAN, on 29 June 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Great photo - but is it WW1 period? The soldiers are wearing fezzes, which (IIRC) were replaced from 1913 onwards by the bashlik cloth 'sun' helmet. That apart, does the newspaper indicate where the photo' was taken? I'm wondering if it is a 'stock image' from the time of the Balkan Wars...

Trajan

EDIT: Just had another look at the photo' - can't see any bolts to the rifles, so are they Peabody-Martini 1874's, second type with 'sabre' bayonet? In which case even less likley to be a WW1 photo as theTurk's had bolt-action Mausers by then.

EDIT02: Further examination suggests this is a prisoner escort party or something worse... The guy dressed like an iman in the centre, between the two files of soldiers, has a placard around his neck, presumably a notice detailing his offences...

Hello,
Thank you for your interesting answer and this information.

Yes i'm not sure that the legend was good or not, in my head I were thinking that this photograph was maybe early the war. I don't know the date of the photograph and was when the Balkans war, nothing by the news-paper, only an article about carpet sellers at Damas with a photograph of Turkish peoples (or citizens), young boys and men all around some old men seated on chairs. In this article, the person says in the text "same in the war time", after, other articles (or next pages) and not link, are a financial article, after two photograph of German soldiers (one in on the Russia front), and for the last page of the news-paper, two photographs in Turkey whose it).

I agree with you for an escort of prisoner, surely this. But a question. Photograph was taken by the journalist of the article about Damas sellers? Or as you say an old photograph taken in a stock image? Really, I don't know and I imagine the answer impossible.

"Le temps présent" wasn't a big news-paper as French news-papers by the size as "Le pays de France" and "J'ai vu",etc... 16 little pages for "Le temps présent" only an article by page or two pages.

So, I'm sorry Chris but I'm not really a Turkish Army expert .
Best regards.
Nicolas.

[TRAJAN]

Revan, on 29 June 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

...Photograph was taken by the journalist of the article about Damas sellers? Or as you say an old photograph taken in a stock image? Really, I don't know and I imagine the answer impossible...

The architecture, especially the house on the left, with its glassed-in balcony level, might give somebody else aclue as to its location, but it doesn't look very Turkish to me, or Syrian either, although the hosue on the right, with a projecting upper level supported on wooden logs is rather Anatolian...

But, it is a great photo, nonetheless! And I am more and more certain that those are Peabody-Martini rifles, but with the shortened M1874 bayonet - the original bayonet had a long yataghan blade. IIRC, the shortened blade was introduced in about 1912... So, I am now wondering if these are Jandarma, not army men, which would fit better with the prisoner.

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Yes Trajan, those are Peabody-Martini rifles with the bar-on-band bayonet attachment, fitting the strongly hooked quilloned M1874 bayonet (with which you are familiar.!)

Cheers, S>S

[michaeldr]

I'm not an expert on arms, so while I offer this, I am not sure if it is of help here

The 'Handbook of the Turkish Army 1916' (8^th prov. ed., Feb 1916, Intelligence Section Cairo)
has it that the Turks “possessed Martini-Henry, Martini-Peabody rifles to the number of perhaps 500,000, but many of these were very old (370,000) dating from the war of 1877-1878.”

It is noted that ammunition for these was 'not believed to be very considerable' and conversion to “a 7.65mm single loader is apparently being effected on a considerable scale.... About 150 Martinis are, it is said, being converted daily in Constantinople, but when this conversion was first taken in hand is not known.”

Despite this, the old Martini rifles do seem to have been used by troops - “..supplies of new rifles are not likely to reach the outlying regions of the Empire, where fighting is now taking place, eg. Irak and the Russian and Persian borders, for some time to come, and only one regiment, the 3^rd of the recently formed 45^th Division, had Mausers at the battle of Ctesiphon, the other two having the Martini-Mauser.”


regards
Michael

[shippingsteel]

Most of that information is correct Michael. They did have the Peabody rifles at the time of the GW and some were converted to handle the modern calibre ammunition.
However the standard longarm during the GW was a German made Mauser rifle, together with some captured Mosin-Nagants. Peabody's were very secondary arms.
So I would think that dates this photo to the Balkan War period somewhere around 1912-13 period, so probably not much use as an illustration of GW Turkish infantry.

Cheers, S>S

[michaeldr]

Most of that information is correct Michael. They did have the Peabody rifles at the time of the GW and some were converted to handle the modern calibre ammunition.
However the standard longarm during the GW was a German made Mauser rifle, together with some captured Mosin-Nagants

the section I quoted is indeed preceeded by the statement that
'It was believed in the autumn of 1914 that the Turkish Army had about 500,000 7.65 Mauser rifles and perhaps 200,000 9.5mm Mausers.'

[TRAJAN]

michaeldr, on 29 June 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

... the other two having the Martini-Mauser.”...

Ok, rifles are not my thing, so is that a misprint? Or a reference to a Peabody-Martini 1874 converted to a 7.65mm single loader? Or was there such a beast as a Martini-Mauser?

That aside, I don't suppose the Handbook indicates when these conversions to 7.65mm calibre began to be made? S>S will correct me if I am wrong (which I think I am!), but IIRC, the generally accepted date for this is 1912.

Trajan

[michaeldr]

... the other two having the Martini-Mauser.”...

It's not a misprint and I interpret it to mean Martini (Henry or Peabody?) rifles, which were converted & now take the Mauser ammo

[TRAJAN]

michaeldr, on 29 June 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

...It's not a misprint and I interpret it to mean Martini (Henry or Peabody?) rifles, which were converted & now take the Mauser ammo...

Thank's for the clarification, although I have only ever heard of the Peabody-Martini's being converted to take Mauser ammo. But with the Turks - who knows, as anything goes when it comes to military hardware!!!

Trajan

[Revan]

Hello to all,
Thank you for these informations about rifles, interesting.

I will look if I find some photos by old French news-papers.
Best regards.