13 replies to this topic

[khaki]

What was the official British army hand grenade at the outbreak of war in 1914? I have read descriptions of all the early models but none were identified as being the official grenade that was used in training, pre war and later in combat.
thanks
khaki

[centurion]

Well the Number 1 Grenade was was officially adopted on the 6th of July 1908 and it was used in combat.

[khaki]

Thanks,
Am I correct in thinking the No1 as being the Batty Bomb with the long handle?

khaki

[centurion]

No The Batty was a war time effort. The no 1 did have a handle but was nothing to do with the Batty
http://www.millsgren.../ww1No1 Mk3.jpg - I think the No 1 mk 1 had a longer handle

[RobL]

Same head but longer handle and streamers;

http://www.bocn.co.u..._s_and_2__s.jpg

No 1 Mk 1 at the bottom with Mk 2 and 3 above,, nice trio of No 2's above those

[khaki]

Amazing construction, I don't know why in the initial phases they didn't just copy the German stick grenade which appears a simpler construction.

khaki

[RobL]

Because they didn't have them - the German stick grenade came out in 1915

[Sommewalker]

Although the Grenade Hand, Number 1, MK 1, was in service pre-war, it was not intended for use by the common Infantry, but for use by trained men in the R.E.  The No.1 was actually a crib from a Japanese design brought back by  Military Attache from the Russo-Japanese War.  He also apparently warned that it was unpopular with the troops as they (the Japanese) considered it too dangerous!  This didn't stop the British adopting it although it seems that it was not considered suitable trench-warfare,(then for what one feels entitled to ask?).  In its original form it had a sixteen inch cane handle. Once in France it proved to have a high accident rate and was unsuitable for mass production, using a special detonator assembly which could only be produced by a the Royal Laboratory and Cotton Powder Company.  Hence the rash of improvised devices , such as the Battye and the Jam Tins, which appeared early in 1915.  The Germans had pre-War stocks of the M.13 ball grenade but even they used improvised devices such as the Hairbrush. - SW

[centurion]

Sommewalker, on 26 June 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

This didn't stop the British adopting it although it seems that it was not considered suitable trench-warfare,(then for what one feels entitled to ask?).

In 1908 when the No 1 was adopted trench warfare WW1 style was a distant nightmare. The grenade was intended as an assault weapon, much like the original 18th century grenades, to be thrown from open ground into, or over, the defences being attacked.. Again just as in the 18th century
"Our leaders march with fusees, and we with hand grenades.
We throw them from the glacis, about the enemies' ears."
So to be thrown into trenches not from them or in them.

[Old Tom]

Perhaps we should have a facility for posts like Centurion's to be accompanied by music.

Old Tom

[squirrel]

The German stick grenade was lethal if you were very close to it but it was designed more for blast/stun effect.
The British grenades were designed to kill. To be used in an attack on an entrenchment as Centurian says.
Pretty lethal when used in defence as well.

[centurion]

Old Tom, on 26 June 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Perhaps we should have a facility for posts like Centurion's to be accompanied by music.

Old Tom

One of my most cringe making memories was at the age of 9 being made, at the school concert,  to sing (very badly) the whole of The British Grenadier with accompanying gestures (a sadistic extension of Music and Movement). Please do not open old wounds.

[Sommewalker]

Well. not really Centurion.  The background in which they were adopted was a siege with much trench digging, parallels, approaches and so on.  The restriction to the R.E.s would indicate the powers that be were aware of this.  Generally the history of this bomb suggests very limited lethality due to the irregularity of the fragmentation.  The Bethune or Battye bomb was probably a better bet, but GHQ always lusted for a percussion bomb, even after the Mills was adopted,despite the inherent disadvantages, indeed so many that as far as I know none are in service with any major army. I would not think you would like to continue this discussion unless you have specialist knowledge.- SW

[centurion]

Sommewalker, on 26 June 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Well. not really Centurion.  The background in which they were adopted was a siege with much trench digging, parallels, approaches and so on.  The restriction to the R.E.s would indicate the powers that be were aware of this.  Generally the history of this bomb suggests very limited lethality due to the irregularity of the fragmentation.  The Bethune or Battye bomb was probably a better bet, but GHQ always lusted for a percussion bomb, even after the Mills was adopted,despite the inherent disadvantages. SW

Which was what I was describing. In a traditional siege parallels and approaches (originally known as saps) were not fighting trenches but a means of getting you up close. A sortie aimed at their destruction would approach 'over the top' so to speak and an assault either on the fortresses ditch or onto a breach would lokewise require getting out of a trench.