19 replies to this topic

[LEDSHAM]

I am researching my Great Grandfather William Ledsham of Ellesmere Port, Cheshire.
I know he was in the RWF about 1914 and later the MGC
The board in front of this photo states similar to this:
1st RWF 22 B df MGC

I know rwf is The Royal Welsh Fusiliers, and the MGC the Machine Gun Corps - and can see their cap badge of the MGC
But I'm not sure if the 1st is Battalion, and the 22 Brigade - or is the B something else - researched loads, but its quite confusing.

I have used Ancestry and Long Long road and THINK I have his regiment number:
16738 and 19191
But I don't know for sure if this is his or not. Just matched the name and I know he was in the RWF, from family knowledge.

Any help you may provide will be most appreciated.

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[hywyn]

Welcome to the Forum.

There are two William Ledshams identified in the Medal Index for RWF.

As well as the William Ledsham you have identified there was William Ledsham 3220 (later 200008). (spelt Leadsham for the Victory & British) He was a pre war 4th Bn Territorial man, served the War in 4th Bn and earned the DCM. So it doesn't look at face value to be him.

William Ledsham 16738. Enlistment for this number is end October 1914. There are men around his number identified as having served in the 1st Bn. His medal card shows he entered France 12 5 1915. This is not a landing date for any of the new Battalions and so it indicates he was a reinforcement for the two battalions already out there, the 1st and 2nd.

As you will have seen in your research the 1st Bn was in the 22nd Bde of the 7th Division. A Machine Gun Company was formed in this Bde on 24th Feb 1916 and it's War Diary is available for download from the NA for £3.50. In the same download is the War Diary for the 1st Bn RWF.  

First though of course you need to show he's the right one. The Absent Voters List for Cheshire are at Cheshire Archives, Chester. I have extracted RWF men from them but wouldn't have picked up on William given that by 1918 he had an MGC number. A look up of them, armed with all known addresses should hopefully solve it.If you do identify him I'd be interested to know the address for my RWF research.

Cheshire Archives
http://archives.cheshire.gov.uk/

1st RWF & 22 Bde MGC War Diaries
http://www.nationala...1&resultcount=9


Hywyn

[hmsk212]

1914/15 Star Roll

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Steve

[hmsk212]

Slightly closer look

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Steve

[hmsk212]

War & Victory Medal Roll

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Steve

[hmsk212]

A bit closer

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Steve

[LEDSHAM]

Thank you so much Hywyn and Steve.
I do have a picture of him before he was in the MGC in 1915 - but not much to see - the cap badge looks RWF. If I can sort of the size of it, I shall post.
I went ahead with the war diary download - thank you! I will spend the afternoon looking through that, as I'm intrigued after learning so much, so far.
As for the Cheshire Archives - absence of voters, I've just been looking to find his area, which I think would come under Wirral.
But not available to access it.
I know his address for 1911 was 10 Nelson Road, Ellesmere Port, as he is on the census. Was a labourer then.
And in 1915 his address was 48 Enfield Road, Whitby, Ellesmere Port - this is the address on a postcard he sent just after my Grandmother was born in May 1915. There are a number of photos taken sometime of that year that show him in his RWF badge - well, it looks like RWF, and from family knowledge.
I intitially heard that he was in the 2nd Battalion RWF, from starting this search, and the photo I included has helped identify him in the MGC - so whether he was in the 2nd initially, I don't know yet.

[hmsk212]

Hi

His MGC number, 19191,  would suggest that he transferred to the MGC from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in early March 1916.

Steve

[LEDSHAM]

I'm adding this photo to show his uniform before the MGC cap badge.
This was taken sometime in 1915 - after mid May is all I know.
I also know he got hit by a bullet to the chest, and his cigarette case saved his life, which is still in the family - yet to get a picture of that.
I only need to link those 2 regimental numbers to him - and as Hywyn suggests, the absent voters is a great place to find out.
As I'm not near Cheshire, I can't drop in for some time, and the records don't seem to be available, that I can find.
I also have a number of postcards he sent (waiting for them to be emailed to me) and in using the war diary, can place him and date them.


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[Stebie9173]

After the Machine Gun Corps was formed in late 1915 the army began to "migrate" the Vickers (and in some cases Maxim) machine gun sections of Infantry battalions over to the Machine Gun Corps in early 1916. The command of the Machine Gun sections moved up a level of command from Battalion to Brigade (usually of 4 battalions) level. These men were then transferred from the Infantry to the Machine Gun Corps and renumbered. It is usual to see these men renumbered with MGC numbers in the range from 3001 to about 25000. The 1st RWF were part of 22nd Brigade of 7th Division. Hence, the Vickers MG section of 1st RWF would become one section of the 22nd Brigade Machine Gun Company. After a few months, the "Brigade" part was dropped and they became known as 22nd Machine Gun Company. In 1918 the Machine Gun Companies of each Division merged and thus 22nd Machine Gun Company would become one company of the 7th Machine Gun Battalion.

This would certainly mean that the 16738 and 19191 numbered man is consistent with your knowledge of William Ledsham's career.



Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Most MGC sections were numbered in sequence when they moved. The following would appear to be the section William Ledsham moved with:


19179 William Trueman 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 9716, Machine Gun Corps 19179
19180 Arthur Bown 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 5757, Machine Gun Corps 19180 KIA 29.8.16, 22nd Company
19181 William J Nind 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 4515, Machine Gun Corps 19181
19182 William Robert Manning Royal Welsh Fusiliers 10870, Machine Gun Corps 19182
19183 Leonard T Brown Royal Welsh Fusiliers 4995, Machine Gun Corps 19183
19184 James H Whitehead Royal Welsh Fusiliers 23014, Machine Gun Corps 19184
19185 James John Lewis Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17204, Machine Gun Corps 19185 DoW 16.7.17, not stated (died in the UK)
19186 Isaac Mansfield Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17492, Machine Gun Corps 19186 KIA 26.10.17, 22nd Company
19187 Matthew S France Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17075, Machine Gun Corps 19187
19188 William Thomas Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17576, Machine Gun Corps 19188
19189 Charles Hateley Royal Welsh Fusiliers 11419, Machine Gun Corps 19189
19190 Lawrence Ferguson 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers 10571, Machine Gun Corps 19190
19191 William Ledsham Royal Welsh Fusiliers 16738, Machine Gun Corps 19191
19192 Arthur Gibbons Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17528, Machine Gun Corps 19192
19193 Ellis E Jones 2nd Royal Welsh Fusiliers 8864, Machine Gun Corps 19193
19194 Sly Harold B Royal Welsh Fusiliers 4137, Machine Gun Corps 19194
19195 Samuel Williams R Welsh Fus 4884,Machine Gun Corps 19195 KIA 30.8.16, 22nd Company
19196 William Roberts Royal Welsh Fusiliers 18891, Machine Gun Corps 19196
19197 Herbert H Payne Royal Welsh Fusiliers 13801, Machine Gun Corps 19197
19198 John Madden Royal Welsh Fusiliers 4894, Machine Gun Corps 19198, Royal Engineers 354873 & WR/100198
19200 Frederick Day 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 9178, Machine Gun Corps 19200
19201 Hugh Parry Royal Welsh Fusiliers 9700, Machine Gun Corps 19201
19202 John Spalding Royal Welsh Fusiliers 9362, Machine Gun Corps 19202
19203 William Jones Royal Welsh Fusiliers 7988, South Wales Borderers 34606, Machine Gun Corps 19203
19204 John Keneally Royal Welsh Fusiliers 10069, Machine Gun Corps 19204, Royal Welsh Fusiliers 7807801
19205 William E Thomas 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 10086, Machine Gun Corps 19205
19206 Robert Edge Royal Welsh Fusiliers 16482, Machine Gun Corps 19206
19208 George Stitchener 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 11856, Machine Gun Corps 19208, KIA 18.7.16, 22nd Company
19209 Thomas Morris Royal Welsh Fusiliers 7885, Machine Gun Corps 19209 KIA 29.8.16, 22nd Company
19210 Albert V Contressor 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 11369, Machine Gun Corps 19210
19211 Leslie H Tudor Royal Welsh Fusiliers 4229, Machine Gun Corps 19211
19212 Arthur Platt 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers 10721, Machine Gun Corps 19212
19213 John Nutt Royal Welsh Fusiliers 5270, Machine Gun Corps 19213


Note that those who were killed were 22nd (Brigade) Machine Gun Company men. I think the circumstantial evidence for this being the right man is VERY strong.


The numbers before this group are from the Royal Warwickshire Regiment (up to 19178) and South Staffordshire Regiment (19214 onwards) who would have probably been from the 2nd RWR and 1st South Staffords, also of 22nd Brigade.


I would suspect the photo would have been taken in February 1916 when the MG section of the 1st RWF left and became a section of 22nd Company MGC.


Is it possible to have a bigger photo, especially of the blackboard with the writing on?



Steve.

[LEDSHAM]

Here is a larger size.   [Wiiliam Ledsham is standing at the back sort of on his own with the large moustache. 4th from left, not including those seated]
Unfortunately the board hasn't come out clear - due to my family scanning the original
But they do have a clearer view of the writing on it - which I put in 1st post.
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And the other that I have...

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[LEDSHAM]

Forgot to mention that he did not die while at war - my family seem very certain on that.
And he's the front row, 3rd from right - without the hat and the massive moustache

[Stebie9173]

The lower picture is taken in 1918 or thereafter. William Ledsham has a two year good conduct chevron (introduced before the war) on his left arm plus two wound stripes (introduced in 1916 and backdated). On his right cuff he has overseas service stripes (introduced in early 1918 and backdated).


Steve.

[LEDSHAM]

I can't thank you all enough for your information - I can't believe how much you have supplied me with already! I am honestly astounded.
I have emailed Cheshire archives to try and hope for a quick search to be done - its worth a try - until I can get there.
If I can definately link him to those two regimental numbers, then there's my proof. I feel pretty definate that it is, but would like to know 100%.
2 weeks ago I hardly knew a thing about him, and now, sitting here reading through war diaries, all your info & knowledge...
.....so glad I found this site.

[LEDSHAM]

Well I had to include this one, as I assumed it would have been taken around the time of the other one of him standing alone.
But judging on what you say regarding the cuff chevron etc, then I'm more inclined to think this is after he arrived home at the end of it all - I read that they had 28 days to return their items - would the uniform be included?
I can see the age difference - but given what they went through, I wouldn't have been surprised at a more aged face.
I am hoping that the postcards on the desk are some of those he sent, and it is the cigarette case that saved him from a bullet to the chest that is also displayed.
So difficult on scanned photos.
If I do manage to track my family down, then more may surface.

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[hmsk212]

LEDSHAM, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Forgot to mention that he did not die while at war - my family seem very certain on that.

The War & Victory Roll shows that he was discharged to Army Reserves Class Z on 2nd March 1919

Steve

[Stebie9173]

I think the two photos are indeed at opposite ends of the war.


The standing one is at the start of the war.

The sitting one with his wife is at the end - he has the set of overseas chevrons, good conduct chevron and his two wound stripes - and that certainly looks like a cigarette case with a hole in it!



Steve.

[LEDSHAM]

Thanks for replies!
Well, only a snippet of new evidence, but have been sent my grandmothers birth certificate, 1915
It states Fathers occupation as "Private 2nd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers".

"William Ledsham 16738. Enlistment for this number is end October 1914. There are men around his number identified as having served in the 1st Bn. His medal card shows he entered France 12 5 1915. This is not a landing date for any of the new Battalions and so it indicates he was a reinforcement for the two battalions already out there, the 1st and 2nd" [from Hywyn post no 2]

Would this mean, then, that he would have gone to join the 2nd Battalion already out there?
Then later moved to 1st with the MGC. I know it probably sounds like a stupid question, just needed to know rather than make an assumption, as my war knowledge is diabolically poor.
(learning so much more now though)

[LEDSHAM]

Cheshire Archives got back to me after doing a search of name and address: No information on name or address But, given that he would have left the army in March 1919, then he would have been there to vote later that year...if my research is correct. So it looks like this info has been exhausted to its best ability, and I doubt further info can be obtained which is a shame, I am following the information you have all supplied me with, as it is too close not to be him in all honesty If anyone is researching the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at any point and stumbles upon this info, or gains more, please let me know, I will be following. I have another son of Williams to research, and will post a few pics to try and place him, as I know nothing on him or his placement, but will probably try the photo id thread for that But I do thank you all for all your leads, pics, research and info - it has been a great help in mapping Williams life. Thank you all!