17 replies to this topic

[sawdoc34]

Hello chaps,

just got this P1855, was intended as an upgrade on my other 1 but on comparison I have noticed that my original version has been modified to fit another rifle.
I thought that the tip of my original P1855 had been damaged & reground but now I am think that it may have been done to make it more easily recognisable as a modifed bayonet.
What do you lot think of mt daft theory?

Cheers,
Aleck

[sawdoc34]

[TonyE]

I don't wish to be unkind, but what has this to do with the Great War?

Regards
TonyE

[sawdoc34]

Oops, my bad, sorry about that Tony, just wanted to get some other opinions from the likes of S/S, Trajan etc..
Will try to remember to only include bayonets that could have still been used in WW1 in future
Sincerest apologies,
Aleck

[TonyE]

Very happy to see your WWI bayonets Aleck!

Cheers
TonyE

[TRAJAN]

Naughty naughty, Aleck, if an understandable and inadvertent contravention of GWF rules... but I suppose these two might just about have seen WW1 service in some god-forsaken garrison on the outer fringes of Empire, e.g. Scotland... Ok, let's get it over with before a hovering (or hoovering?) MOD steps in.

If I am not mistaken, two Lancaster 'Sappers and Miner's bayonets', Bottom one in OP has the regular pommel, but I think the top one has the (commercial) Volunteer-type pommel (see Skennerton and Richardson pp. 121-123). The pommels of both seem to have been modified - S and R say (p.123-124) that volunteer issues were hand-fitted to the gun and indicate that pommel modifications are not unusual. Also note that the pre-1858 versions have a rivetted and short leaf spring and post 1858 ones have a screw and longer leaf spring (S and R p. 121) - your photo's in the OP show the bottom one certainly has a screw and both have long springs.

I'll look at the other new babies you have posted later, but a quick look reveals that at least one of your M95's is a Czech product and so post WWI.

Cheers,as our Antipodean mate would say!

Trajan

[DavidB]

Transfer the post to skindles, no problem there about being out of order.

[Sepoy]

A number of these bayonets were used as side arms by the Army Hospital Corps (later became the Royal Army Medical Corps) hence the AHC markings. I may be wrong but this is a possible reason for the conversion.....

Sepoy

[shippingsteel]

So which "hoovering" pedant has now decided converted Lancaster bayonets were never utilised as issue weaponry in the Great War.? Wait, let me guess ...
I'm still away on holidays, hiking through dense rainforests and trekking above the snowline in the Tasmanian wilderness, but this thread has got my attention.!

As Sepoy has suggested above, yes they were used in the war, mainly issued to the Medical Corps units as sidearms, and only to be used in a dire emergency.
Photographic evidence may be a little hard to find but it shouldn't be impossible. I have seen several of these marked to wartime units and with stamped dates.
You only have to look to the original post to see a photo showing a reissue stamp, together with a possible date marking of 8/18 - but probably circumstantial ...

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

I find antipodean" humour" so envigorating.

Regards
TonyE

[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 05 July 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

...So which "hoovering" pedant has now decided converted Lancaster bayonets were never utilised as issue weaponry in the Great War.? Wait, let me guess ... ... As Sepoy has suggested above, yes they were used in the war, mainly issued to the Medical Corps units as sidearms... a possible date marking of 8/18 - but probably circumstantial ...

.

Hi S>S,

No, not me being a hoovering pedant, just though that a MOD might become one and hoover this thread off the GWF as being non-WW1 related... Like I said in my reply, happy to accept that these could well have been issued in WW1 but only on 'the outer fringes of Empire', although Sepoy's point that these were used by the Army Hospital Corps means I should perhaps rephrase that to 'units on the outer fringes of active service'. Can't go with the possible 8/18 date mark though - I see that as part of a sequence, '8/1870 [weapon no.] 402 - but what do I know about these ones? Nowt much!!!

Trajan

PS: S>S - Watch out for those Tasmanian Tigers - or is it Tasmanian Devlls? Or both???!!

[DavidB]

SS,
You wouldn't have to be much above sea level to be above the snow line in Little England - woops sorry, Tasmania.

[shippingsteel]

rgartillery, on 05 July 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

You wouldn't have to be much above sea level to be above the snow line in Little England - woops sorry, Tasmania.

Thats right David - actually its about 1200mASL at this time of year, but of course that can change daily depending upon the weather conditions.

A couple of notes concerning the above P1855 bayonets (more commonly known as the Lancaster carbine bayonet or just Lancaster bayonet)

1.  Lancaster bayonets last mentioned in the LOC #10559 dated 5th March 1901, regarding "sharpening before troops proceed on active service."

2.  Skennerton & Richardson also show a converted Lancaster marked to the RAMC with a stamped re-issue date of 1906 ("B&CB" pages 122-25)  

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Pattern 1855 Lancaster Bayonet had been the official sidearm of the Army Hospital Corp ( AHC ) / the Army Medical Corps ( AMC ) / the Royal Army Medical Corps ( RAMC ), and appears to have been officially withdrawn from use at some time in 1906.
The last time that the Lancaster Bayonet was used officially by the RAMC was when a detachment of the RAMC paraded as the Guard of Honour at King Edward VII's ceremonial opening of the Marischal College in 1906, as part of the University of Aberdeen's 400th Anniversary celebrations.
In the photograph below, we can see the RAMC Guard of Honour with their Pattern 1855 Lancaster Bayonets at the carry.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In the RAMC's Training Manual of 1904, there is section entitled " Lancaster Sword Bayonet Exercise ".
Below is a photograph of a Pattern 1855 Lancaster Sword Bayonet pommel marked ' RAMC '.

Attached Files

•  RAMC Pommel.jpg   53.79K   0 downloads

[TRAJAN]

Thanks for the update LF. I think I have read somewhere (Skennerton and R?) that the Lancaster bayonet is one of the most common UK bayonets to be found - any idea if that is so?

Trajan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

TRAJAN, on 06 July 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Thanks for the update LF. I think I have read somewhere (Skennerton and R?) that the Lancaster bayonet is one of the most common UK bayonets to be found - any idea if that is so?

Trajan

Trajan,
No, the 1855 Lancaster bayonet ( Royal Sappers & Miners bayonet ) is not one of the most common U.K. bayonets to be found. Production numbers for the Lancaster bayonet are actually very low, estimated at only some 15,000+.
What is quoted in Skennerton and Richardson, is that because the Lancaster bayonet continued to be used as a decorative sidearm, particularly by the RAMC ( as late as 1906 ), " A large percentage of the Lancaster bayonets have survived ; in fact, its survival rate would be the highest of any British bayonet ".
I wonder if anyone ever worked out the survival rate for the 1907 bayonet ?
Regards,
LF

[TRAJAN]

Lancashire Fusilier, on 06 July 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

...in fact, its survival rate would be the highest of any British bayonet "....I wonder if anyone ever worked out the survival rate for the 1907 bayonet ?

Thanks for the clarification LF - couldn't get my hands on my S&R when I wrote the earlier post. Now, the survival rate of a P 1907, and especially a WW1 vintage example, that's an interesting thought, although off-hand I would imagine there are many more out there than we can imagine!

Best,

Trajan