72 replies to this topic

[depaor01]

Hi all,

Came across this photo in a contemporary photo album from 1916. The man is standing in front of the ruined GPO in Dublin. I'm particularly struck by the "buttoned cloth belt" where a web belt should be, the detached shoulder pads and jodhpurs. The whole ensemble looks unorthodox to say the least!

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Why is he dressed so differently to the usual "Tommy"?

Thanks,

Dave

[centurion]

The South Irish Horse had similar shoulder pads and jodhpurs

[centurion]

As per this man
http://southirishhor...gordonvaugh.jpg

[depaor01]

Thanks Centurion - would similar variations be found in other cavalry regiments?

[centurion]

I'm not a cavalry expert I'm afraid. I know from my digging on another subject (10th RDF in which my grandfather served) that some SIH were around Dublin at the time of the rising.

[Graham Stewart]

The Norfolk Pattern jacket would indicate a member of one of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps/Volunteer Force units. They assisted the Army during the Easter Rising guarding vunerable points and several were actually killed.

[centurion]

Graham Stewart, on 05 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

The Norfolk Pattern jacket would indicate a member of one of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps/Volunteer Force units. They assisted the Army during the Easter Rising guarding vunerable points and several were actually killed.

And the Jodhpurs would suggest cavalry such as a Yeomanry unit like the SIH - you pays your money and you makes your choice.

[depaor01]

Graham Stewart, on 05 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

The Norfolk Pattern jacket would indicate a member of one of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps/Volunteer Force units. They assisted the Army during the Easter Rising guarding vunerable points and several were actually killed.

Hi Graham:

That ties in nicely with the caption underneath "Loyal Volunteer on duty at General Post Office" which I attached no importance to because all Irishmen were "volunteers" as there was no conscription in Ireland.

Thanks gents,

Dave

.

[Grovetown]

100% VTC. See Bodsworth Fig. 40 p.354 for Norfolk-style jacket worn with 'jodhpurs'.

Also cap badge looks GS  - and certainly not the shamrock of the SIH.

[Joe Sweeney]

Very much support Graham and GT on this.

VTC uniform patterns still exist for the Norfolk Jacket and the pantaloons per "The Great War: Styles & Patterns of the 1910s"


Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

It's difficult to tell from the picture and the angle here but he MIGHT be holding an enfield CARBINE as opposed to an SMLE.
The muzzle does not appear to exhibit the diagnostic "ears" of the SMLE and the overall length looks too short (although this could be a function of the angle)

There was a particular type of carbine supplied to the RIC (modified to allow the use of the P1888 bayonet by "bushing" the muzzle - see below - which looks to be present here) - interesting if this is indeed what is shown as I do not believe I have seen them in a Great War context before.

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[TRAJAN]

Well spotted 4thG! And thanks for the illuminating post on this rifle.

Trajan

[Graham Stewart]

depaor01, on 05 July 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Hi Graham:

That ties in nicely with the caption underneath "Loyal Volunteer on duty at General Post Office" which I attached no importance to because all Irishmen were "volunteers" as there was no conscription in Ireland.

Thanks gents,

Dave

.

There was an Irish VTC unit actually called the 'Loyal Dublin Volunteers', so suspect it's one of their members, some of whom were killed. The VTC throughout the U.K. began fund raising to assist the families of those killed/wounded during the Rising, because as 'civilians' they weren't entitled to any financial assistance from the UK Government

[depaor01]

Curiouser and curiouser re the rifle... I hadn't noticed its length (or lack of it) and you'd expect to see a bayonet lug at the muzzle - I can't see one of those either. Given that there were still 10,000 RIC carbines to be disposed of in 1920,  Click  it's not beyond the bounds of probability that this could be one.

[Graham Stewart]

 officialregulati00centrich_0060 - Copy (Copy).jpg   79.93K   6 downloads

You pay's your money - you takes your chance - and Regulations tell it all.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Are the men on either side of this picture wearing the same uniform?

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•  post office.jpg   92.3K   12 downloads

[depaor01]

I believe so... the rifles look similar too. Could the chap on the left be the same as the one in the original photo?

[Graham Stewart]

CASUALTIES IN IRELAND.

HL Deb 09 May 1916 vol 21 c946 946

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON
My Lords, I wish to ask the noble and gallant Earl the Secretary of State for War a Question of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether he is in a position to tell the House the numbers of the military casualties in the recent disturbances in Ireland.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL KITCHENER)
My Lords, from the latest information the casualties in Ireland are: Army—officers killed, 17; wounded, 46; other ranks, killed, 86; wounded, 311. Royal Navy—other ranks, killed, 1; wounded, 2. Royal Irish Constabulary—killed, 12; wounded, 23. Dublin Metropolitan Police—killed, 3; wounded, 3. Loyal Volunteers—killed, 5; wounded, 3. Total killed, 124; wounded, 388.

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON
Do those figures include members of the Royal Irish Con stabulary wounded in other parts of the country besides Dublin?

§ EARL KITCHENER
The information has been received by telegraph to-day, and I believe it includes the figures for every part of Ireland to date.

Taken from the Hansard for 1916.

[murrough]

link here to topic on loyal Dudlin Volunteers.http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161152

[jdoyle]

if I remember correctly, the Dublin IAVTC chaps did not have uniforms (only the GR brassard) and carried Italian rifles.

This chap doesn't have a GR brassard. He looks young to be VTC. The cap badges isn't LDV (round) or the Rugby Union IAVTC (roundish)

GPO is not far from Trinity where the Dublin University OTC volunteers were located. No idea what badges/uniform the OTC wore but many would be younger than the VTC.

[FROGSMILE]

centurion, on 05 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

And the Jodhpurs would suggest cavalry such as a Yeomanry unit like the SIH - you pays your money and you makes your choice.

Yeomanry did not wear the Norfolk style jacket.  Graham is quite correct and the man is wearing the style of uniform worn by VTC in Ireland at that time.

I am puzzled as to why you invariably seem to make a point of contradicting him when in fact he has great expertise in the area of British uniforms (amongst others).

[Graham Stewart]

jdoyle, on 05 July 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

if I remember correctly, the Dublin IAVTC chaps did not have uniforms (only the GR brassard) and carried Italian rifles.

This chap doesn't have a GR brassard. He looks young to be VTC. The cap badges isn't LDV (round) or the Rugby Union IAVTC (roundish)

GPO is not far from Trinity where the Dublin University OTC volunteers were located. No idea what badges/uniform the OTC wore but many would be younger than the VTC.

Of the LDV badge I owned and of all of the examples I've seen, all were lapel badges for wear with civilian clothing and the fact remains that Irish VTC units were called up to assist the Army during the Rebellion. I think you'll find this article interesting, because the GPO appears to have been both HQ and Armoury of the LDV;
http://www.newslette...ation-1-3719467

Considering the Rebellion, was a state of National Emergency then the assistance of the VTC was essential and therefore the armband would be unnecessary as they're on 'active' service - very much like the Home Guard of WWII. By mid-1916 all VTC units in the UK had come together as part of the new Volunteer Force and as such the General Service cap badge had been adopted.

Sadly very little is known of Irish VTC units or what badges were worn and the article implies that all of the records of the LDV were destroyed in the GPO building.

As for being an OTC member - I'm afraid I very much doubt it.

[jdoyle]

Graham, I think you're getting confused about buildings and timeline.

[FROGSMILE]

auchonvillerssomme, on 05 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Are the men on either side of this picture wearing the same uniform?

They are indeed wearing the same uniform and also carrying the enfield carbine.

[FROGSMILE]

jdoyle, on 06 July 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Graham, I think you're getting confused about buildings and timeline.

Both the OPs photo of an individual soldier and the later picture posted by forum member 'auchonvillersetsomme' appear to relate to the 1916 uprising and the main GPO building.

The link in Graham's post makes clear that the find of ww1 vintage arms in 1935 took place not in the main GPO building, but another that was a part of the GPO complex and that had associations with the LDV, who from 1915 formed a Dublin based detachment of VTC and were called out to assist Crown authorities in the April 1916 rising. It is these men that are almost certainly seen in the photographs, given the provenance of their distinctive VTC uniforms.

To quote the key facts:

"In August 1915, it was proposed that they (the LDV) affiliate themselves with the Irish Association of Voluntary Training Corps. To this end, 200 immediately signed up, effectively making the men a reserve army unit. They saw active service a lot quicker than they anticipated, and upon the outbreak of the Easter Rising they assisted troops from the Curragh in suppressing the violence. On the first day of the rising several Loyal Dublin Volunteers lost their lives".

Ergo - I do not see in what way Graham has confused buildings and timeline?

Enclosed is a GS badge as worn by VTC.

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