55 replies to this topic

[seadog]

As an example of a war cemetery sited in what now is an industrial estate here is an early image of Colne Valley CWGC near Boezinge Ypres prior to the major industrial developments surrounding it. Will a member please post a recent photo of this place so that we can see a comparison as I believe that the war cemetery is now screened by trees but I could be wrong.

Norman

[old owl]

seadog, on 18 July 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is not rocket science--- I would also expect the CWGC to make their feelings known to the planners and to take a proactive role in any discussions.

Norman, with respect, it looks like it could be for the French? because presumably they have already passed the plans.  And yes, I am certain that the CWGC will have had their say.
It is unlikely however to stop them building near a CWGC cemetery in the future, should they so choose.

[seadog]

Building near any war cemetery is not a problem for me as long as the development takes in to account the need to respect the cemetery and that any plans include such an arrangement. This is why I have posted the image of Colne Valley as it will be interesting to see how the Belgian authorities have dealt with this particular location. I think that your premise that the CWGC have had their say on the subject of this thread is not yet based on any firm evidence and perhaps you would like to contact them to ascertain whether this is the case and then post the response here.

Regards
Norman

[Chris_Baker]

Slightly off tangent but isn't Colne Valley suffering from flooding problems? I wonder how much of that might be due to industrial development nearby.

[steve morse]

We had three occasions last week when the issue 'raised its ugly head'.  We picked the kid up from Tyne Cot after driving via Colne Valley - a sad little cemetery surrounded by buildings (and smell). Later in the week we also visited Bellewaarde, the scene of much death and destruction in WW1. Finally we stopped at Adinkerke on the way home with its shop adjacent to the cemetery.
Colne valley - I still find it a lovely little cemetery and the amount of rain would probably make anywhere flood and it is on a slope. In a perfect world it would be lovely to have all round views of green fields with skylarks and bunnies in the fields.  
Bellewaarde -  I found it a place of joy with kids of all nations mixing. The kid even told me she had views of the battelfields whilst being catapulted into the air.
Adinkereke - Coach loads of people see the cemetery as they drive past and if even one of them feels the need to explore more, then I am happy.
I doubt that the majority of men would give a thought to the state of land that surrounds them.
I am more concerned by the Circus Menin gate.
How about stopping coach companies virtually making kids and adults go to a certain chocolate shop in Ypres (kick backs no doubt). Special offer if you sepnd euro 20 (ye right) Luckily the kid knows a decent shop that we use and steered some of her friends to that.  Basically I feel that expoitation of the battlefields is more of a problem than cemeteries being surrounded by buildings.

Steve M

[seadog]

Got a pic of Colne Valley Steve?

Norman

PS Whats the problem with "Tommy Helmet" chocs yum yum

[old owl]

seadog, on 18 July 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

I would also expect the CWGC to make their feelings known to the planners and to take a proactive role in any discussions.

Norman, I was merely agreeing with your statement and as such I shall leave the honours to yourself on the matter of contacting CWGC to confirm your own thoughts.

Robert

[centurion]

It's not the only CWG Cemetery suffering from flooding near Ypres where there have been some torrential downpours. The CWGC web site states that this cemetery is prone to flooding in heavy rain and engineers are looking at solutions
This page http://www.ww1cemete...leycemetery.htm shows how tree planting has mitigated any visual impacts of industry.

[Chris_Baker]

Did Colne Valley suffer from flooding even in the heaviest of rain prior to the industrial expansion along the canal bank? Don't think so, but I'd be interested to know.

[centurion]

From CWGC News

Cemeteries in Northern Europe.
"These are experiencing problems due to severe weather conditions in the area. Colne Valley Cemetery in Belgium is currently under water following heavy rainfall. Dozinghem Military Cemetery has also suffered with flooding. This is not an unusual occurrence in Northern Europe during rainy periods, and a long term solution is being sought to prevent further problems in the future. Visitors may find it difficult to access these sites at this time."

[seadog]

Centurion thanks for the link with the photo of Colne Valley, I had spotted this but just wanted confirmation that it was a recent one as my photo was taken a good while back. On the understanding that it is recent then I am very happy that such a screen of trees has been planted which in my view does preserve the dignity of this war cemetery.

Robert It would be nice if you contacted the CWGC as you have made the statement that they have been involved with the new development and right now I have a query with them regarding a fault in their Debt of Honour software which is no doubt occupying their minds at this time.

The Thread:
http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=182057

Regards
Norman

[centurion]

seadog, on 18 July 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Centurion thanks for the link with the photo of Colne Valley, I had spotted this but just wanted confirmation that it was a recent one as my photo was taken a good while back. On the understanding that it is recent then I am very happy that such a screen of trees has been planted which in my view does preserve the dignity of this war cemetery.

The alternative would be that it had been screened but all the trees were chopped down before you visited. This seems unlikely.

[Siege Gunner]

seadog, on 18 July 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

... when such developments are proposed in close proximity to any war cemetery then due respect and dignity must be included at the planning stage. By this I mean that perhaps the war cemetery could be screened with trees or the site landscaped to favour the location of the cemetery.

With the exception of the word 'must', I find myself, for once, in agreement with Norman.  On a 'greenfield' site of this size, it ought to be possible to use screening or landscaping to preserve the tranquillity of the cemetery.  I wonder if there is any planning legislation relating to developments adjoining French military cemeteries?

[seadog]

Centurion I think that your link is indeed a modern one as there were no sign at all of any trees when I took my photo. It would be good to see a wider shot of Colne Valley to put it as it were in a landscape perhaps there is one out there.

Siege, thanks for the comment I foresee a new era of peace and understanding approaching. It would be good to know what input the CWGC have in such developments when they are so close to a war cemetery and who pays for the tree screening etc, I suppose the developers?.

Cheers
Norman

[old owl]

"Robert It would be nice if you contacted the CWGC as you have made the statement that they have been involved with the new development and right now I have a query with them regarding a fault in their Debt of Honour software which is no doubt occupying their minds at this time."


Thanks Norman, but as you are obviously used to dealing with the CWGC, I shall leave this obviously most important issue in your extremely capable hands   

Regards,  Robert

[centurion]

seadog, on 18 July 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Centurion I think that your link is indeed a modern one as there were no sign at all of any trees when I took my photo. It would be good to see a wider shot of Colne Valley to put it as it were in a landscape perhaps there is one out there.

I've seen an intermediate photo with the trees about a third as high, There appears to be a new embankment the other side of the trees presumably blocking noise from the industrial estate so that the living can go on earning one whilst the dead rest in peace.

[seadog]

Thanks for that it sounds like both the trees and embankment go a long way to preserve the dignity and respect that places like this deserve. I am sure that members will have other examples such as this and it would be good to see them here. I hope that seeing how some war cemeteries are protected to an extent when new development happens will perhaps help with the genuine concerns felt by Tom T-M who started this interesting thread.

Norman

[seadog]

Colne Valley CWGC (Red arrow) from Google Earth, good to see that right now there is no development in front of the cemetery if this is a recent view. Looking North from the direction of Ypres

Attached Files

•  c val.jpg   169.97K   0 downloads

[Dragon]

It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that screening is also put in place because people don't generally like looking at cemeteries from their workplaces, homes or places of entertainment.

Gwyn

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Dragon, on 18 July 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that screening is also put in place because people don't generally like looking at cemeteries from their workplaces, homes or places of entertainment.
Gwyn

I remember that when I was quite young there was a campaign by people living fairly close to us to have a local piggery closed down, because of the smell and noise. These people were living in a newly built housing development. The piggery had been there since before WW2. Moral; if you don’t want to live next door to a piggery then don’t build your house next to a piggery. I would have thought that people who didn’t want to live next to a cemetery should possibly take a similar view, and people who do choose to live next to a cemetery should treat it with due respect.

Something about all of this is reminding me of US Secretary of State Dean Rusk’s enquiry to French President De Gaulle when the French withdrew from NATO back in the 60’s. Essentially Rusk was asking De Gaulle if the French had any respect for the war dead of their allies. Rusk recorded that De Gaulle didn’t answer, but maybe the question was unfair, or at least De Gaulle may have though it to have been unfair ?

Tom

[Jim Smithson]

The new occupants of these new houses are going to have to get used to the view.

 IMG_3754 (Medium).jpg   67.08K   0 downloads

Jim

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Jim Smithson, on 12 August 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

The new occupants of these new houses are going to have to get used to the view.
...

Jim – Mindel Trench British Cemetery. Does the house to the right of the approach path still have the two particularly large and unpleasant dogs which make every effort to jump the fence, with the clear intention of tearing the occasional cemetery visitor to shreds ? I always wonder how unpleasant the owners must be (and carry a modern entrenching spade, a useful implement walking accessory at many CWGC sites).

This cemetery was already overwhelmed on three sides before this development began

Tom

[KevinBattle]

Isn't the answer (simplistically) that the EXTERIOR of CWGC cemeteries is the responsibility of those living on its boundaries?
If hedges or trees need to screen the view, then that is the responsibility of the developer OUTSIDE the cemetery.
Those purchasing houses adjacent MUST know what they are living by and accept that.

I confess to being nonplussed by people moving where there is a known "problem" be it cocks crowing, the church bells or an airport and then complaining. They wouldn't have been able to afford the price if the prroperty didn't have those "issues" so why are they allowed not only to complain, but even expect to win?

[Jim Smithson]

Tom Tulloch-Marshall, on 12 August 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Jim – Mindel Trench British Cemetery. Does the house to the right of the approach path still have the two particularly large and unpleasant dogs which make every effort to jump the fence, with the clear intention of tearing the occasional cemetery visitor to shreds ? I always wonder how unpleasant the owners must be (and carry a modern entrenching spade, a useful implement walking accessory at many CWGC sites).

This cemetery was already overwhelmed on three sides before this development began

Tom

Seems to be only one these days and it must be ageing as it's just noisy now.  Unfortunately, very soon it will be accessed by the narrow path and yes, will sit completely hemmed in by housing.  If the occupiers of the housing backing directly onto the cemetery create a screen it will become a very claustrophobic place.  The labrador at the unfriendly neighbours to Hervin Farm Cememtery nearby is a hoot mind - I managed to outstare it the other day, sending it back up onto the terrace instead of barking at me!  At that place I would carry the aforesaid walking accessory as protection against the property owners, not the dog.  You would think the access lane belonged to them,

Jim

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Jim Smithson, on 13 August 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

..., will sit completely hemmed in by housing.  If the occupiers of the housing backing directly onto the cemetery create a screen it will become a very claustrophobic place.  The labrador at the unfriendly neighbours to Hervin Farm Cememtery ...  At that place I would carry the aforesaid walking accessory as protection against the property owners, not the dog.  You would think the access lane belonged to them, Jim

Jim, here is roughly the same aspect of Mindel Trench as your photo in post 46, taken back in Jan 2009 before the latest housing developement began.

 GWF Mindel Trench British Cemetery Jan 2009.JPG   39.99K   0 downloads

"Claustrophobic" hits the nail on the head - so many cemeteries have now just been completely
engulfed by developments, their character almost obliterated.

You mention Hervin Farm. The entrance gate there is the third photo in my post #18 above. The “Hervin Farm” title half obliterated by the concrete garden fence post. I’ve listened to all the “progress” excuses which some put forward for that kind of thing, and I’m afraid they don’t wash. The householder's actions at Hervin Farm is vandalism, nothing more, nothing less.

Tom