16 replies to this topic

[tomplant]

I understand that this diary can be viewed at Kew but I live overseas and wonder if anyone has any extracts from this or
suggested lines of inquiry.

I want to see if I can find out more about my Great Great Uncle 2971 Arthur Pemberton who joined up age 16 in November 1914 and was in this battalion until he deserted in January 1916. I have found his service record and he was in trouble for running away and disobeying orders from summer 1915 onwards.

He subsequently joined the Worcestershire Regiment as Arthur Evans and was killed (I'm not certain of the exact date at the moment).

I'm wondering whether others deserted with him (I think they were in Danbury, Essex at that time) as it may help me find out when he joined the Worcestershires.  

Any information or assistance gratefully received.

[SPOF]

Hi

There are no mentions of desertions for January 1916. Two men were discharged and several demobilised for munitions work.

If you post a few more times to get to 5 posts, ytou can use the private messaging system and I can send you more information. Otherwise, you can download the full war diary for 182 Brigade from HERE and it covers from August 1915 to JAn 1916 and then from May 1916 onwards (Feb, March and April are missing)

Glen

[BillyH]

Hello Tom,
I have a copy of the 2/5th diary from 1st September 1915 through to early 1918.
I wouldn't imagine any reference would be made to a desertion either, but if you would like me to send you some of it then PM me an e-mail address and which months you would like a copy of.

Regards,   BillyH.

[SPOF]

Billy

Tom needs to make a few more postsd to get to 5 before he can use the PM system.

Glen

[BillyH]

Glen,
I thought they had reduced it now, but after a search on the site I think it is still 5 as you say.
I have sent him an e-mail via the forum with my e-mail address so hopefully that will get around it?

BillyH.

[tomplant]

Thank you very much, SPOF and BillyH - you have been very helpful.

I will try downloading from SPOF's external link, and if that fails I will PM you in a week or two if that is alright.
I don't really know my way around the National Archive site at the moment, and I find it confusing.
However from SPOFs link I was able to get to a screen which will allow me to dowload the diary in its entirity for £3.50,
which I think is wonderful !

His brother John Pemberton was also in the Warwickshires (2nd Bat) and was killed 18th/19th Dec 1914. If I can find that War Diary
for that Battalion, I will download it as well.


Again - many thanks !

[tharkin56]

can you post any more info about the men where born, lived etc. Someone may have a newspaper clipping

[Alan Tucker]

2/Warwicks December 18/19 1914. Based on the war diary and other stuff ...



On the night of December 18/19 the 2/Warwicks played the leading role in what would later have been described as a trench raid but which the Official History referred to as ‘demonstrations against the enemy with the object of holding him to his trenches’ (98). The British and French command had decided to resume offensive operations partly as some German divisions had been transferred to the Russian front. The first stage failed and Messines Ridge was not recaptured. General Joffre continued to attack north of Arras and sought British help. Orders were therefore issued for actions at various points in the British line in order to distract the Germans and make, if possible, small local gains. The points finally selected for 7^th Division were near La Boutillerie and Rouges Bancs. The Warwicks supported by the Queen’s were to capture German trenches in front of Le Maisnil, near Bois Grenier, attacking at 4 a.m on December 19 after a brief but heavy artillery bombardment; all the ammunition supply would permit. Two battalions of 20^th brigade were to go in at 6 p.m. The Warwicks’ attack was just west of a salient at Well Farm, near La Boutillerie. They were to form up on a front of 200 yards and advance close to the bombardment with covering fire from the Queens and South Staffs.

Captain Haddon’s ‘B’ company attacked first on the right advancing in two lines. ‘A’ company were on the left and ‘D’ in the centre. ‘C’ company formed a third line ‘with entrenching tools’. Each flank was supported by a machine gun. The battalion went forward in the darkness in face of heavy fire from guns, rifles and machine guns and had been lost to sight. At 5 a.m. an NCO came back and reported that they were held up just short of the German trenches and had lost heavily and needed reinforcements. Some Queens went forward to help. (99)

The bombardment had not prevented the Germans from manning their parapet in force and they opened a heavy fire. Major Brewis was one of those killed near the German wire and several other officers were shot down nearby. One small party was established in a small trench just outside the German parapet and held on only to surrender when it became light. Most attackers were either shot down crossing No Man’s Land or stopped outside the wire. The survivors were now ordered back whilst the Germans allowed stretcher-bearers to do their work. Some officers were buried and some discs collected. Some wounded were carried into the German lines to become prisoners as the Germans refused to allow them to be removed to the British lines. Lieutenant Colonel Brewis was found about 40 yards from the German line. He was buried on December 20 in Sailly sur Lys churchyard. Five officers and 34 men were found a few yards from a German machine gun.   The Warwicks had 8 officers and over 300 men killed, wounded and missing. CWGC figures indicate 28 deaths on December 18 and 91 on the following day (see Appendix 19). One of the officers killed was Second Lieutenant Brabazon Campbell, aged 21, the son of the Town Clerk of Warwick. Born March 3 1893 he attended Repton then Queen’s College, Oxford, where he broke off his second year studies to join up. At Oxford he had been in the OTC so he was soon commissioned into the 4^th (Extra Reserve) Battalion on August 15 1914 based on the Isle of Wight and went to join the 2/Warwicks in France on November 26. He died trying to capture a German machine-gun but his body was not recovered until the Christmas Day truce when he was buried in one of three communal graves with about 80 men in each. There was a special vote of sympathy at a meeting of Warwick Town Council. Today he is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial to the Missing (100). Another officer killed that day was Second Lieutenant Geoffrey Pearce, the son of the Liberal MP for Limehouse from the Liberal landslide of 1906 to defeat by Clement Attlee in 1922. He was a chemical manufacturer who had attended Uppingham School and initially went to France with the Artists’ Rifles. He had represented this unit in the bayonet fighting team at the Royal Tournament in 1914 (101) On December 19 Private Roland Norman, aged 33, was killed. Called up as a reservist he had been working as a Coventry postman in 1914.After his death a memorial service was held at St Thomas, Coventry, attended by Mr Coulson, the postmaster, and other local Post Office employees. He left a wife, Emma (102).

The December ‘raid’ had been a very costly venture

[tomplant]

Alan Tucker, on 21 July 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

2/Warwicks December 18/19 1914. Based on the war diary and other stuff ...



On the night of December 18/19 the 2/Warwicks played the leading role in what would later have been described as a trench raid but which the Official History referred to as ‘demonstrations against the enemy with the object of holding him to his trenches’ (98). The British and French command had decided to resume offensive operations partly as some German divisions had been transferred to the Russian front. The first stage failed and Messines Ridge was not recaptured. General Joffre continued to attack north of Arras and sought British help. Orders were therefore issued for actions at various points in the British line in order to distract the Germans and make, if possible, small local gains. The points finally selected for 7^th Division were near La Boutillerie and Rouges Bancs. The Warwicks supported by the Queen’s were to capture German trenches in front of Le Maisnil, near Bois Grenier, attacking at 4 a.m on December 19 after a brief but heavy artillery bombardment; all the ammunition supply would permit. Two battalions of 20^th brigade were to go in at 6 p.m. The Warwicks’ attack was just west of a salient at Well Farm, near La Boutillerie. They were to form up on a front of 200 yards and advance close to the bombardment with covering fire from the Queens and South Staffs.

Captain Haddon’s ‘B’ company attacked first on the right advancing in two lines. ‘A’ company were on the left and ‘D’ in the centre. ‘C’ company formed a third line ‘with entrenching tools’. Each flank was supported by a machine gun. The battalion went forward in the darkness in face of heavy fire from guns, rifles and machine guns and had been lost to sight. At 5 a.m. an NCO came back and reported that they were held up just short of the German trenches and had lost heavily and needed reinforcements. Some Queens went forward to help. (99)

The bombardment had not prevented the Germans from manning their parapet in force and they opened a heavy fire. Major Brewis was one of those killed near the German wire and several other officers were shot down nearby. One small party was established in a small trench just outside the German parapet and held on only to surrender when it became light. Most attackers were either shot down crossing No Man’s Land or stopped outside the wire. The survivors were now ordered back whilst the Germans allowed stretcher-bearers to do their work. Some officers were buried and some discs collected. Some wounded were carried into the German lines to become prisoners as the Germans refused to allow them to be removed to the British lines. Lieutenant Colonel Brewis was found about 40 yards from the German line. He was buried on December 20 in Sailly sur Lys churchyard. Five officers and 34 men were found a few yards from a German machine gun.   The Warwicks had 8 officers and over 300 men killed, wounded and missing. CWGC figures indicate 28 deaths on December 18 and 91 on the following day (see Appendix 19). One of the officers killed was Second Lieutenant Brabazon Campbell, aged 21, the son of the Town Clerk of Warwick. Born March 3 1893 he attended Repton then Queen’s College, Oxford, where he broke off his second year studies to join up. At Oxford he had been in the OTC so he was soon commissioned into the 4^th (Extra Reserve) Battalion on August 15 1914 based on the Isle of Wight and went to join the 2/Warwicks in France on November 26. He died trying to capture a German machine-gun but his body was not recovered until the Christmas Day truce when he was buried in one of three communal graves with about 80 men in each. There was a special vote of sympathy at a meeting of Warwick Town Council. Today he is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial to the Missing (100). Another officer killed that day was Second Lieutenant Geoffrey Pearce, the son of the Liberal MP for Limehouse from the Liberal landslide of 1906 to defeat by Clement Attlee in 1922. He was a chemical manufacturer who had attended Uppingham School and initially went to France with the Artists’ Rifles. He had represented this unit in the bayonet fighting team at the Royal Tournament in 1914 (101) On December 19 Private Roland Norman, aged 33, was killed. Called up as a reservist he had been working as a Coventry postman in 1914.After his death a memorial service was held at St Thomas, Coventry, attended by Mr Coulson, the postmaster, and other local Post Office employees. He left a wife, Emma (102).

The December ‘raid’ had been a very costly venture

Thank you very much, Alan - very informative. My Great great Uncle Private John (Jack) Pemberton was killed in that raid and left a wife and two children.

[tomplant]

tharkin56, on 18 July 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

can you post any more info about the men where born, lived etc. Someone may have a newspaper clipping

Thank you. I have been unable to order the war diary for the last few days (system times out when I submit my order).
The soldier I am researching is Pte. Arthur Pemberton (2971 2/5th Royal Warwicks, born 19/9/1898) from Angelina Street, Birmingham.

2/11/14 Attested.

12/8/15  15 days detention for AWOL

23/12/15 21 days loss of pay for disobeying a lawful command and awol in London (caught by civil police)

13/1/16  15 days detention for not complying with an order

31/1/16 declared a deserter.

Subsequently joined the Worcestershire regiment as Arthur Evans and was killed in 1916/1917 (more than one possibility)

Any suggested lines of enquiry gratefully received.

[tomplant]

tomplant, on 22 July 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Thank you. I have been unable to order the war diary for the last few days (system times out when I submit my order).
The soldier I am researching is Pte. Arthur Pemberton (2971 2/5th Royal Warwicks, born 19/9/1898) from Angelina Street, Birmingham.

2/11/14 Attested.

12/8/15  15 days detention for AWOL

23/12/15 21 days loss of pay for disobeying a lawful command and awol in London (caught by civil police)

13/1/16  15 days detention for not complying with an order

31/1/16 declared a deserter.

Subsequently joined the Worcestershire regiment as Arthur Evans and was killed in 1916/1917 (more than one possibility)

Any suggested lines of enquiry gratefully received.

I have now managed to order the war diary (thanks to help from forum members)

There are no entries for February 1916 (the Court of Inquiry into Arthur's desertion was held in that month).

The last war diary entry I have is for Jan 31st, the day (according to his service record) that Arthur was declared a deserter.
The war diary entry for that day says "One man demobilized for munitions work". Could that be a euphemism for desertion ?

Many  thanks.

[Alan Tucker]

tomplant, on 27 July 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

The war diary entry for that day says "One man demobilized for munitions work". Could that be a euphemism for desertion ?

No - common trawling out of men with engineering skills

[SPOF]

Tom

As Alan says, it was quite common to withdraw men for munitions work. Have a look at hte war diary for August-November 1915 and you'll see it reported regularly.

His service record on Ancestry (starting at p792 under Pem if you want to browse to it) shows the findings of the Court of Inquiry on 22/2/16 and lists the kit he was issued and was still outstanding. There is a blank page after that but I suspect that the Army went to his NoK - his mother - and found out he was under age hence the recording of his date of birth on the front of his service record and was quietly thrown out of the Army.

When he turned 18 in Sept 1916 he would have become liable to serve under the Military Service Act or, more likely, volunteered to get in under an alias. The most likely A or Arthur Evans on CWGC with the Worcesters is 203998 Pte A Evans from the 1/7 Worcesters killed on 9/10/17 and buried at Tyne Cot Cemetery. The only other one without any additional information to eliminate them is 29588 Pte A Evans of 1st Worcesters kiled on 12/8/16 but that is probably too soon after his earlier escapades to be re-enlisted, trained up again and sent to the front even if he could get away with joining up again stiull under age.

If you try a new post wiht 1/7 Worcestershire Regiment in the title maybe someone who knows about the Regiment will be able to help.

Glen

[tomplant]

SPOF, on 28 July 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Tom

As Alan says, it was quite common to withdraw men for munitions work. Have a look at hte war diary for August-November 1915 and you'll see it reported regularly.

His service record on Ancestry (starting at p792 under Pem if you want to browse to it) shows the findings of the Court of Inquiry on 22/2/16 and lists the kit he was issued and was still outstanding. There is a blank page after that but I suspect that the Army went to his NoK - his mother - and found out he was under age hence the recording of his date of birth on the front of his service record and was quietly thrown out of the Army.

When he turned 18 in Sept 1916 he would have become liable to serve under the Military Service Act or, more likely, volunteered to get in under an alias. The most likely A or Arthur Evans on CWGC with the Worcesters is 203998 Pte A Evans from the 1/7 Worcesters killed on 9/10/17 and buried at Tyne Cot Cemetery. The only other one without any additional information to eliminate them is 29588 Pte A Evans of 1st Worcesters kiled on 12/8/16 but that is probably too soon after his earlier escapades to be re-enlisted, trained up again and sent to the front even if he could get away with joining up again stiull under age.

If you try a new post wiht 1/7 Worcestershire Regiment in the title maybe someone who knows about the Regiment will be able to help.

Glen

Thank you for this. Your insight is very useful - ultimately I may be able to determine which of the two is the correct one by comparing the grave inscriptions with those on his
brother's grave.

I've looked a bit more closely at the "demobilized for munitions work" issue - unfortunately, the war diary entries prior to 1st December lack any detail on this, but working with the information for December 1915 and January 1916:

Arthur ran away on the 18th Dec   and the war diary for that day says "two men demobilized for munitions work"

He was caught in London on the 20th and was then detained somewhere for 21 days - so he was probably back on the 11th/12th Jan. The war diary for the 12th January  says "one man returned from munitions work". On the 13th January he also received a 15 day detention for not complying with an order on the 12th Jan.

He deserted on the 31st January - again the war diary says "one  man demobilised for munitions work"


Soldiers were demobilised for munitions work on 6 of the 62 days that the diary covers. Soldiers returned from munitons work on 4 of the available 62 days.

The probability that this is a coincidence (assuming all days equally likely) is very small - maybe  6/62 x  4/62 x 6/62 or about 0.06 percent (a very small fraction of 1% !). I have assumed all days equally likely here and I have assumed Arthur returned from detention on the 12th (it could have been the 11th) but the answer is so small that this won't alter the argument.

i.e this is almost certainly a cover up - and Arthur was probably not the only one who ran away from this battallion at this time. Is it likely that the pages for the following few months were removed because they contained too many courts of inquiries into desertions ?  

Thanks again for your help,

[alan jones]

Hello Tom ,
Have you thought of visiting Colindale Newspaper Library in London and browsing through the Police Gazettes for mention of Arthur ? I was lucky and found mention of my grandads brief desertion and giving himself up in Portsmouth before going off to war . It might just give you a bit more information and maybe other names too .
Regards
Alan

[tomplant]

alan jones, on 29 July 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Hello Tom ,
Have you thought of visiting Colindale Newspaper Library in London and browsing through the Police Gazettes for mention of Arthur ? I was lucky and found mention of my grandads brief desertion and giving himself up in Portsmouth before going off to war . It might just give you a bit more information and maybe other names too .
Regards
Alan

Thanks Alan. I will do that.  I tried to gain access to the Police Gazetter through the Open University, but I'm not sure that they have what I want. I live overseas, but I will go next year.

[tomplant]

A (distant) relative has sent me an image of an old newspaper cutting and from this
I have worked out that my Great Great Uncle Arthur Pemberton did in fact join the 1st Battalion Worcestershire
Regiment as Pte. Arthur Evans 29588 and was killed in action on 12th August 1916. It also
includes (very grainy) photos of both he and his brother !

Many thanks for all help received.