12 replies to this topic

[Gary H]

Hi All

I'm a first time poster and new to this trying to find out a bit more about my Grandad , Private/Lance Crpl  Thomas H Holderness who served with the Royal Fusiliers ( i think ) the 2nd battalion .

I guess I'm quite lucky as I know a fair bit about him from my late father , who passed down to me his medals " pip squeak and wilfred" is that what they are called ? and his honourable discharge scroll which my brother has .

What we was told is that he served at Gallipoli  and was wounded then discharged on the 5/8/1918 . Which makes a gap of about 2 and a half years !  we are assuming that he got wounded in Gallipoli eventually returned to duties and then got wounded again presumedly on the western front ? we are not sure what happened .

I've just downloaded his Medal index card from the national archives and it confirms a lot of what I remember my dad saying to me as a child and what is on his scroll

it says

2 R  FUS  14570

then give details on his medals ,

  remarks DIS 392 xvi 5/8/18  - which I think is his honourable discharge date as it ties up with whats on his scroll .

2b balkans and entry date 25/4/15  -  gallipoli ?

and finally SWB list which I don't know what that means .

If any of you guys have any info about him or the Royal Fusiliers 2nd battalion , what they did and what happened after Gallipoli or how we could find out I would be very greatful to know .

Later in year I hope to go to the National Archives in  Kew to see if they have anything more down there I can find out  .

cheers Gary H

[Verrico2009]

Hi Gary - and welcome to the Forum.

I'm sure the experts will be along to fill in the details, but I can tell you that the SWB List refers to the Silver War Badge (often referred to as the Silver Wound Badge) for servicemen who had been injured or become severely ill in service - I believe partially to mollify the women who (sometimes too enthusiastically) challenged men out of uniform as being unpatriotic.  The reference on the card relates to the roll of names and details now held at TNA at Kew.  His was numbered 433380.

He enlisted on 29 March 1911, making him a pre-War regular.  He was discharged as a result of wounds (rather than sickness) on 5 August 1918 aged 26.  He was with the 8th Battalion at the time.

Hope that helps!

Louise

ETA - given that the 1911 Census was taken in April that year, I assume he is the 19 year old Private in the Royal Fusiliers who was born in Balham and stationed at Isleworth.  Others will have more idea, but it is probable that he spent the first part of the War on the Home front, given that the MICs relate only to overseas service.  I also note that in the SWB details his unit is given as Territorial Force (London).

[Gary H]

Thanks Louise , that was quick ! I've just had my dinner and a reply straight away .

Now I understand what SWB means . Makes sense I suppose ,so the ladies at the time really did used to give them a white feather just like what you see in some of these old  movies. i see on the site they have a picture of one , def more of a badge than medal , very interesting .

Althought I ve got my grandads medals I never recall seeing the Silver war badge . I presume he must of lost it .

I forgot to say it looks like Reg. or Regt no next to the number 14570 and it definitely says "corps" where 2 R FUS is written .  I remember my Dad saying he was sure he was also out in India at some stage . Haven't a clue how that gets into the equation . . . .

Anyway I'm off to a good start .


Thanks again

[Verrico2009]

Hmmm - thought I was being tardy!

Think it was in one of the Lost Voices books that there's an account of a young man who was in civvies before the SWBs were issued and he was duly handed a white feather - he proceeded to use it to clean his pipe and then politely handed it back, saying something like "wonderful - we didn't get many of those at the Front", though of course he was mortified and seething.

I suspect the SWBs were easily lost.  And of course all they have on them is the issue number, unlike the medals (and yes, you're very lucky to have inherited the trio).

I'm sure you'll get some help with his movements, but I would think India is a distinct possibility - a lot of regiments were there: I believe it also counted as Home service.  The Pritchard in my signature was out there in 1911 and also entered theatre in early 1915.

I've had a look round to see if any service papers have survived, but you probably know that they took a direct hit in WW2 and around 70% were destroyed.  Unfortunately, they seem to have kept all the records together and so you're unlikely to have much luck.  I've tried FMP which sometimes holds otherwise unavailable records, but nothing that I can find.

Really, you're very lucky to already know so much.

[Gary H]

Thanks again for sharing the info Louise, much appreciated .

I thought my Grandad must have been very  lucky to get through it all . Mind you I see Gunner Pritchard  trumps that with WW1 and the Boer war !

Although browsing the sight I see many peoples friends and family were not so lucky . I guess fate is a very fickle mistress .

Thanks for the info about the 8th battalion  i will try to find out more about that , weve got a badge ( well two actually ) one a royal fusiliers badge and another one that says Middlesex Regt . and Albuhera in the middle . i never made the connection that it might be something to do with my Grandad . But if the Middlesex are connected to the 8th then that would explain why we have it .

Thanks again Gary

[Yoshi]

2nd battalion Royal Fusiliers were part of the 29th Division. They were known as the Incomparable Division. The 2nd Royal Fusiliers were part of the 86th brigade of the 29th Division. Other regiments in that brigade included the 16th battalion (public schools) The Middlesex regiment (maybe your badge has something to do with that?).
They landed at Cape Helles (X beach) on 25th April, escorted by the HMS Implacable, the first 2 companies landing at 06:30.
Later in the Gallipoli campaign they were moved and fought at Suvla at the Battle of Scimitar Hill and eventually were evaucated to Egypt in Jan 1916, before going to France in March 1916 and the 29th took part in the Battle of the Somme at the area around Beaumont Hamel.I think they were in Calcutta pre war and they served in Gallipoli for the whole of that campaign.
The Long, Long Trail website has lots of information and I expect there are books about your grandfather's particular battalion. Try using the search feature of the forum as that might throw up some interesting stuff.

http://www.1914-1918.net/royalfus.htm

There is an online book about the regiment in the Great War by HC O'Neil available free here
http://archive.org/d...siliersin00onei

Page viii he talks specifically of the 2nd battalion and laments the lack of recognition of their undoubted bravery and achievements at X beach.

Hope those are of some help

Flo

[Gary H]

Thanks for your help Flo , downloaded the book ,very good and reading it now .

Not only that book and what happened to the 2nd , but reading other peoples stories on the site makes for pretty humbling reading

[Martin G]

There are 88 pages of the 2nd Bn War Diary for the Gallipoli campaign included in the 29th Div War Diaries. If is available online from the National Archives for about £3.50...the ref is WO 95/4310.

The 2nd Bn was stationed in India at the time of the 1911 Census, and all men serving in the Bn are listed in the many pages of submissions. They were at the Pachmari Depot and had a detachment at Jubbulpore. Given he just joined, he was either in training at the UK depot or on a ship on the way to India. The Battalion was still in India at the outbreak of the War having moved to Calcutta.

Regards MG

[Yoshi]

I agree, there are lots of interesting and very humbling stories about the Great War. I can spend hours just reading posts here. My great uncle was killed at Gallipoli and he was also in the 29th Division but a different brigade.He was with the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. The National Archive had the war diaries online for the different brigades of the 29th. I have the ones for the 87th brigade but the Royal Fuslilers were in the 86th. They are only 3.50 to download but I have just looked and they don't seem to be available to download now. From reading other posts here I understand the NA is working on digitalising records so maybe it has something to do with that. It's  shame as they make such interesting reading and you could find out a lot more about the movements of your grandfather. You could keep checking the National Archives site to see when they available again as I am sure they will be.

[Yoshi]

Ah I see you are right.They are available here;  http://www.nationala...&accessmethod=4

[Gary H]

Thanks , you've all been very helpful .

Just a couple of  last questions !

When Louise (Vericco 2009) refers to the number 433380 I take it thats his SWB reference number on the badge or something else ? and

On his M.I.C.  know R FUS  means Royal Fusiliers but the number 2 in front (ie 2 R FUS ) definitely means 2nd battalion Royal Fusiliers .

[Verrico2009]

Yes, that is the SWB number and I believe they were imprinted on the badges.  

I believe that you are correct.

Yes, I thought Gunner Pritchard did quite well, earning his LS&GC, but this week at Kew one of the records I copied was for a CQMS who enlisted in 1890 and extended his service into WW1!  As you say, many were not so lucky.  Sadly we never knew Gunner Pritchard but I'm sure he would have had some tales to tell!

[Gary H]

Thanks again Louise