117 replies to this topic

[David Filsell]

Since Easter 1916 was during the Great War I assume this topic is legitimate here!
I come new to the rising, having just read two books about the topic - Agony at Easter, Thomas M Coffey and the much more recent The Rising Fearghal McGarry), and with a superabundance of ignorance on the topic.  
1 Neither books give or even estimate losses, Irish - civilian and those who 'rose'. or the those of the British army. Are there figures?
2 Is there an account of the British Army's actions/reactions.
and
3 Can anyone recommend the best reading on the subject.
Rgerad
David Filsell

[BLee]

The link below gives what details I have been able to find out about the various causalities, military and civilian. Most books on the subject I find are much the same, the second link below is for the Irish Times book of the Easter Rising, this contains a list of most of the causalities and an interesting account of how they saw events at the time. I have also put a link to the Irish Newspaper Archive, it contains access to the Irish Independent newspaper and some regional titles, you have to pay for access but it does give some interesting accounts of events.



http://www.irishmedals.org/index.html

http://archive.org/details/sinnfeinrebellio00dubl

https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/index.php

[1st east yorks]

David,

'The secret court martial records of the easter rising' by Brian Barton lists 62 Irish killed,excluding the excecuted leaders,during the 1916 rebellion.All 62 people are named in an appendix.
Ive read Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion by Charles Townshend which i enjoyed.

Anthony.

[Chris_Baker]

Sir John French's despatch: http://www.1914-1918...d_despatch.html

[Steven Broomfield]

1st east yorks, on 20 July 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Ive read Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion by Charles Townshend which i enjoyed.

Anthony.

Having also recently developed an interest in the topic and period (I'm currently reading Towards Ireland Free by Liam Deasy, which although hardly impartial is a jolly good read), and I saw Townshend's book in W H Smug the other day; I thought about purchasing - is it a "good book"?

[Jim_Grundy]

I think the "1916 Rebellion Handbook", first published in 1916 by the Weekly Irish Times, but available in a 1998 reprint by the Mourne River Press (with an introduction by Declan Kiberd) is essential reading.

It lists British casualties by unit, killed and wounded (including Irish police forces), Sinn Fein rebels imprisoned/deported (with their addresses), details of inquiries, etc. It is a mine of unique information.

[1st east yorks]

Steven Broomfield, on 20 July 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Having also recently developed an interest in the topic and period (I'm currently reading Towards Ireland Free by Liam Deasy, which although hardly impartial is a jolly good read), and I saw Townshend's book in W H Smug the other day; I thought about purchasing - is it a "good book"?

Steven,
i read Townshend's book about 5 years ago.In truth,i remember enjoying it but cannot remember if its impartial or biased in any way.From what i can remember, it gives a little insight into Irelands tumultuous past and explains the general feeling amongst the population leading upto the rising.The book gives a good account of the rebellion but tends to skip over the trials and executions of the leaders.For me,it was a good introduction to the subject.
Anthony.

[jdoyle]

the 1916 Rebellion Handbook is the best general reference book to start with. Lots of facts and figures but no narrative as such.

The Osprey series book IMO is probably the best impartial starter for generic timeline, actions, maps etc.

http://www.libraryth...6/book/81619408

Some free online books re the Rising are available via the following link

http://www.digitalbo...ellion1916a.asp


Worth having a look at the National Library of Ireland online exhibition

http://www.nli.ie/1916/

YouTube has some videos from the 1966 commemoration series by RTE which are worth a look. A bit dated.

Only book of the Rising I dislike is the Clair Wills book. Lots of good information but just couldn't gel with it.

My latest acquisition (yesterday) is "Sleep Soldier Sleep" which is one chap's story from just before the Rising, a small viewpoint of the Rising, and then beyond to the Tan War and Civil War.

[David Filsell]

Thanks guys, as I said I come to this as a nwebie. The suggestions are both greatly appreciated and most helpful. I fell an extensive abebooks search coming on.
Nothing however on the Brit side has been suggested. It really seems hard to get a handle on tactics, objectives and etc. I guess, only guess, that the bn's involved would not have kept , or needed to keep, War Diaries, but there must have been some post operational analysis of both the military and political actions
Again thanks
David

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

1st east yorks, on 20 July 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

David,

'The secret court martial records of the easter rising' by Brian Barton lists 62 Irish killed,excluding the excecuted leaders,during the 1916 rebellion.All 62 people are named in an appendix.
Ive read Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion by Charles Townshend which i enjoyed.

Anthony.

I would rather you say 62 'rebels' or 'risers' killed, remember the Irish are overhwelmingly the Easter Riser's victims.

I'd recommend Michael Foys book on the subject it's fairly impartial

[BLee]

Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth, on 21 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I would rather you say 62 'rebels' or 'risers' killed, remember the Irish are overhwelmingly the Easter Riser's victims.

I'd recommend Michael Foys book on the subject it's fairly impartial

Of the 106 British Forces I have been able to identify as having been killed during the Rising 28 were born in Ireland, 61 born in the UK and 2 in India, I was unable to find the birth place of 15. Two of these were executed by British Troops and one, from the Royal Navy, was shot by a soldier from the Royal Irish Lancers.  Of the 61 Rebels Killed in Action one was from Scotland and another from Norwich in England.

[corisande]

The Rising is not a subject I have researched.

If there were :-
106 British Forces (I assume that includes police)
61 or 62 IRA men

I assume there were "civilians" killed as well - in other words not included in the 61/62 IRA. What was that figure?

[jdoyle]

Corisande,

if you've not already got it, "Sleep Soldier Sleep" touches on your research re Dunney/Donney and Lt Meade.

[corisande]

Thanks

I'll make a note to get it. I am away till end Aug now.

[BLee]

corisande, on 22 July 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

The Rising is not a subject I have researched.

If there were :-
106 British Forces (I assume that includes police)
61 or 62 IRA men

I assume there were "civilians" killed as well - in other words not included in the 61/62 IRA. What was that figure?

As far as I know there were 14 RIC, 2 officers and 12 Constables and 3 DMP men killed, these are not included in the 106 British Forces, and another DMP Constable who was held by the Rebels in the GPO died a year later from wounds received while escaping from the GPO. I have a list of the civilians I could find, link below, but I think this is in no way near complete as I frequently find other victims.

http://www.irishmedals.org/gpage47.html

[jdoyle]

David Filsell, on 21 July 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

It really seems hard to get a handle on tactics, objectives and etc. I guess, only guess, that the bn's involved would not have kept , or needed to keep, War Diaries, but there must have been some post operational analysis of both the military and political actions

The Osprey book would be the nearest intro/overview re timeline, tactics, orbat, weapons, key figures and buildings.

The 1916 Handbook has data re the enquiry after the Rising. Copies of the post Rising enquiry document are also available at TNA. The handbook also lists those killed, wounded, arrested/deported, awards, the roles of the RIC, DMP, Volunteer Training Corps, Fire Brigade and St John Ambulance and gives details of the looting, fires, the North King St murders, the trials for murder of Capt Bowen-Colthurst, Quartermaster Sgt Flood and Private Wyatt and the treason trial of Roger Casement plus a host of other material.

Uncommon Valour by Paul O'Brien is fairly good re the actions of both sides at the South Dublin Union. Blood on the Streets by the same author is a good account of the actions at Mount Street Bridge.

Max Caulfield's The Easter Rebellion is worth a read. He lists the following unit histories in his extensive bibliography :

The Sherwood Foresters in the Great War, the 2/8th Batt by Lt Col Oates
Fifty Ninth Division, 1915-18 by Lt Col Bradbridge
The 2/6th Battalion The Sherwood Foresters by Cap Edmunds
The 5th North Staffords, 1914-1919 by Lt Meakin

There's very little out there on the role played by the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. Ditto the subsequent deployment of troops around Ireland after the Rising and their training prior to deployment to France.


For a bit about the administration/government in Ireland before and after, 2 books worth a look are :
http://www.libraryth...5/book/71966078

http://www.libraryth...6/book/83897856

[David Filsell]

JD,
Many thanks most helpful.
David

[Dublin Fusilier]

"1916 Rebellion Handbook" is a good reference book and is brilliant for dipping in and out of.

[pob9937]

hello,
i see two of my works Blood on the Streets and Uncommon Valour have been recommended.
In March of this year I released 'Crossfire 1916 & The Battle for the Four Courts.' All my works deal with the combat of Easter week broken down into invidual battles. This makes for easier reading and they come with a good map. For those of you interested come to  Dublin and see the battlefields, they are all still there.
it is difficult to put number on the deaths of both sides.
I recommended a book called They Died by Pearse's Side by Ray Bateson. It details all the Irish deaths during the Rising. for further info on my works please feel free to checkout.
www.paulobrienauthor.ie

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

pob9937, on 25 July 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

hello,
i see two of my works Blood on the Streets and Uncommon Valour have been recommended.
In March of this year I released 'Crossfire 1916 & The Battle for the Four Courts.' All my works deal with the combat of Easter week broken down into invidual battles. This makes for easier reading and they come with a good map. For those of you interested come to  Dublin and see the battlefields, they are all still there.
it is difficult to put number on the deaths of both sides.
I recommended a book called They Died by Pearse's Side by Ray Bateson. It details all the Irish deaths during the Rising. for further info on my works please feel free to checkout.
www.paulobrienauthor.ie

Again, when it says 'Irish deaths' does that include the Riser's victims?

[BLee]

Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth, on 26 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Again, when it says 'Irish deaths' does that include the Riser's victims?

AGAIN, the Irish Time book of the Sinn Fein Rising contains a list of casualties, Military, Rebels and Civilians, I have put a link to it in my first post above, it is free and searchable. AGAIN there is a comprehensive list of CASUALTIES divided into Military, Rebels and Civilians on my website, there is a link in my first post. If you are trying to raise some sort of controversial debate by referring to the casualties as victims then you have come to the wrong place and in over thirty years of interest in the subject it is the first time I have seen the Rebels referred to as Risers, for your information and education I have put a link below to what a Riser is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riser

[Keith Roberts]

I have not amended the posts above.

However can we please avoid intemperate or emotive language. Any further posts that push the bounds are liable to deletion without amendment as it is too hot here to fiddle about tidying things up.

Keith Roberts

Edited by Keith Roberts, 26 July 2012 - 03:21 PM.
to correct typo

[David Filsell]

Well team, I now have a very considerable reading list and some good advice. I am most grafteful.
regads
david

[jdoyle]

enjoy your reading David.

[wig]

Memorial idea here:  http://broadsidesdot...2012/04/25/357/