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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:35 pm
Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:34 am
Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:56 pm
Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:57 pm
As I mentioned a few years back I am working on a collection of bayonets from the Commonwealth, France and Germany of the type used during WW1. As a few of you warned this has got completely out of hand and my developing interest in such things as regimental markings, makers and variants has meant that the collection is now a little larger than I had originally intended.
Anyway, I am currently looking for an example of the british 1903 bayonet, but have had no luck despite a few months looking. Are there any particular features I should be looking for in a 1903 bayonet which would mean that it had a better than average chance of being used during the war (as opposed to sitting in storage or being shipped off to India?)
Any thoughts would be much appreciated - these bayonets seem to be even rarer than their pricing would suggest!
Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:02 pm
Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:17 pm
Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:05 am
LF, I am interested in the leather scabbard your P1903 has been placed in,
Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:57 am
You are perfectly correct, in that the early production years for the 1903 Bayonet would have had the internal chape scabbard, however with some of the subsequent years production the scabbard with the external chape could/would have been used, as referred to above.
Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:32 am
Yes I am aware of that reference to the use of the external chape from 1909.
Posted 28 July 2012 - 05:57 am
In reality, and due to much lower numbers, those 1903 Mk.I Land Pattern scabbards with external chapes, are obviously much rarer than those with internal chapes.
Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:15 pm
Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:43 pm
Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:25 pm
Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:29 am
Members can make their own judgement of the photographs, to me they all look completely original and authentic Pattern 1903 Bayonets and Scabbards, and with such a large and plentiful inventory of original scabbards, I have seen no evidence whatsoever of a an influx of modern ' Indian ' scabbards or even a need for such scabbards.
Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:55 am
Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:26 pm
Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:50 pm
Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:12 pm
It seems some P1903s at least were issued to ASC motorized units (I assume their shorter length meant they were less awkward) here is an example of one in use, with P1903 belt and ammunition pouches - from a wartime picture.
ASC-P1903.jpg 57.59KB 3 downloads
Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:23 pm
... 'Scuse my ignorance, as I am still very much a learner, but I am certain that I read somewhere that the distinguishing feature of an Indian P1903 scabbard was that it had two vertical loops added to the rear seam to attach a helve-carrier...
Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:32 pm
And so collectors are left in a quandary - basically it is most unlikely to be an original scabbard, and certainly more likely to be a modern substitution from India.
I think the only way to be certain of the British providence of the scabbard would be to find the inspection/repair markings that indicate it underwent British repair.
Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:01 am
As for the original post which started this; my guess is that few '03 bayonets served with the Army on the Western Front. Territorial Units were likely to have the P.'88 with the LLE. Even Indian units seem to be using the P.'07 by 1917 with an '08 frog on leather equipment. SW
Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:40 am
So they must have done front-line service as well, alongside P1888's and P1907's.
Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:52 am
So, are helve carrier attachment loops on the back of the scabbard (lower one on the seam just above the chape and upper one on the pig-skin leather around the 'locket') a diagnostic feature (UK versus Indian) or not? Or does nobody know???