11 replies to this topic

[HMSWildfire]

I am looking at a MIC for Fred Coulson which shows him as a 2nd Lt. GHQ Sig Company Machine Gun Corps and then as a Honorary Lieutenant Royal Engineers. He earned the 1915 star, BWM & Victory medal,.
Please can anyone tell me if they would be engraved as a second lieutenant, lieutenant or Hon. Lieutenant?

[IPT]

There is a BWM on this medal website (2nd medal down) which is for Lieut F Coulson. - http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=uk

I can't see any other Lt F Coulsons in the Gazette, so it may be his?

[HMSWildfire]

Thanks very much for this,I will give them a ring, i guess they did not use the honorary on the naming.

[Andrew Upton]

IPT, on 28 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

There is a BWM on this medal website (2nd medal down) which is for Lieut F Coulson. - http://webcache.goog...=clnk&gl=uk I can't see any other Lt F Coulsons in the Gazette, so it may be his?

HMSWildfire, on 28 July 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Thanks very much for this,I will give them a ring, i guess they did not use the honorary on the naming.

It is for A Lt. F. Coulson - a search of the MIC's brings up at least one other Lt. F. Coulson who would have a BWM so named, more likely so if Honorary in some form was supposed to have been used:

http://www.nationala...;resultcount=45

[HMSWildfire]

Thanks for pointing this out, as you say it does not have honorary as a prefix so probably not my man.

[old owl]

HMSWildfire, on 28 July 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

I am looking at a MIC for Fred Coulson which shows him as a 2nd Lt. GHQ Sig Company Machine Gun Corps and then as a Honorary Lieutenant Royal Engineers. He earned the 1915 star, BWM & Victory medal,.
Please can anyone tell me if they would be engraved as a second lieutenant, lieutenant or Hon. Lieutenant?

I am pretty certain that his BWM & VM would be named as Lieut.F.Coulson.  I don't think that the Honorary bit would be included, or at least I don't recall having ever seen this part impressed on a WW1 medal, if it were in this case it would be impressed Hon.Lieut.F.Coulson.

Of course, and I have come across this on several occasions, the medal was impressed Lieut.Hon.----, then this has a totally different meaning which is of course a shortening of Lieutenant The Honourable----.

[IPT]

As he served as a 2nd Lt but was given the honorary promotion upon retirement, would his star differ from the other two medals?

[old owl]

IPT, on 29 July 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

As he served as a 2nd Lt but was given the honorary promotion upon retirement, would his star differ from the other two medals?

You could be right, he may be just '2.Lieut.' on the pair as well--but it seems strange that the rank is shown as 'Hon Lieut' on his MIC, which is not an official rank whilst serving--at least I don't think that it is?  Usually MIC's are marked to show which rank should be impressed upon which medals, I don't think that it is in this case? Which has to leave any thoughts on this open to conjecture.

[old owl]

IPT,

I have just checked my October 1917 Army List and he is still listed under Royal Engineers, ref. 810f  under 'Temp.and Acting Lieutenants' dated 9/11/15.  Based on this I would guess that his 1914/15 Star will be impressed '2.Lieut'  and his BWM & VM will be impressed 'Lieut.'

That's my take on anyway.

Robert

[HMSWildfire]

All,
Thank you very much for taking the time to post on this subject, it has given me a bit better understanding of the Honorary term.

[Jim Strawbridge]

old owl, on 29 July 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

I am pretty certain that his BWM & VM would be named as Lieut.F.Coulson.  I don't think that the Honorary bit would be included, or at least I don't recall having ever seen this part impressed on a WW1 medal, if it were in this case it would be impressed Hon.Lieut.F.Coulson.

Where appropriate the Hon. is placed on the medals. I have in my collections WW1 medals named to :-

HON.LT. A.A. ANDREWS.  (trio)
HON. CAPT. W.J. NORMAN. (pair)

(note - Lt. (not Lieut) as seen on some oversea's officer's medals).

[Terry]

i have been curious about a similar situation. A recent auction catalogue features a trio with the star named to a corporal, Canadian Engineers, while the pair are named HON.CAPT. The fellow was commissioned, but I am puzzled about the "Hon." part of the rank. I had assumed that normally it referred to QM officers commissioned from the ranks back in the good old days, or possibly even chaplains, but I can't figure out this particular case.
Cheers,
Terry