35 replies to this topic

[Martin G]

Hello

I am reading "Retreat and Rearguard 1914; the BEF's Actions from Mons to the Marne" by Jerry Murland. Despite a few minor errors (confusing the Royal Scots with the Royal Scots Fusiliers and awarding the Norfolk Regiment its Royal title 21 years too early), I am enjoying it, although it could do with more footnotes in my view. Can anyone recommend any other books on this episode of the Great War? The more detailed the better. I have just ordered Edmonds' Military Operations: France and Belgium Vol 1 (1914) 3rd edition but would be interested in your views on other books worth reading. Before I go and spend any money I wondered if anyone has thoughts on the following books....

1. Liaison 1914 by Sir Edward Spiers which has good reviews on this forum
2. Mons, Retreat to Victory by John Terraine. - any thoughts?
3. The Mons Star by David Ascoli- ditto.
4. Alarms and Excursions by Sir Tom Bridges. - am interested to know if there is much detail on the attempt to surrender by the COs of the 1/ Royal Warwickshire Regt and 2/ Royal Dublin Fusiliers
5.  Le Cateau by Cave and Sheldon -any thoughts?
6.  Mons by Cave and Horsfall - ditto
7. Dishonoured by Peter T Scott - ditto.

Thanks in advance. MG

[Philip Wilson]

Martin,

Liaison 1914 – first published September 1930 - then New Impression, October (twice) 1930.

My copy is the October 1930 version with 14 very detailed maps and two sketches. Winston Churchill in the preface says- ‘It is the story of the Army of the Left Wing……to those who wish to comprehend the deeper pressures of war and the baffling manner in which they operate upon all subjected to them, these pages will carry a message of profound significance.’  

20 Chapters, 37 Appendices, a good index .  Almost 600 pages in all – well worth reading and having on the shelves as a good reference book.  Spears was clearly in  a good position to write this book, in Churchill’s words  ‘from the view of the French and British Army fighting side by side against overwhelming forces.’

The Mons Star by David Ascoli first published 1982, some 250 pages, 37 plates, 13 maps and 5 diagrams – perfectly okay for anyone wanting to gain an over- arching impression of events with good footnotes to sources. Includes Order of Battle of BEF and a useful index.

In the year 2000 the subject of the CO’s of the 1/Royal Warwickshire Regiment and 2/Royal Dublin Fusiliers was revisited in Seek Glory, Now Keep Glory – the Story of the 1st Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment 1914-18, by John Ashby.  

I recall writing a book review on Seek Glory, Now Keep Glory for the OMRS which was published in their Spring Journal 2001 – 256 pages, 64 black and white illustrations, 9 black and white maps, extensive bibliography in which the author draws on material in Tom Bridges’ book Alarms and Excursions and Dishonoured by Peter Scott as well as some 58 other published sources.

John Ashby’s book adds yet another dimension to ‘the Fog of War’ providing further clarity to the opening stages of the Great War and the affair of the two Colonels at St.Quentin. But it is far more than just that, providing a fascinating insight through eye-witness accounts into the opening stages of the Great War.

Others my have different views on your list of 7 books.

In Kate Caffrey’s book Farewell Leicester Square – the Old Contemptibles 12 August 1914 – 20 November 1914 first published in 1980 are to be found these words:

‘A correct decision was not so easy to make at the time as it appears now.’
Field Marshal Sir William Robertson (Quarter Master General 1914)

[Michelle Young]

Fifteen Rounds a Minute edited by J M Craster is worth a read

Michelle

[1st east yorks]

Martin,
I have read Mons,retreat to victory by John Terraine and can recommend it.The book also covers mobilisation,embarkation and throughout,the many problems facing the BEF due to a poor relationship with the French 5th army,which were on the right of the BEF. Understanding the relationship between General French and General Lanrezac(French 5th army) is an important facet of the retreat.
Anthony.

[David Filsell]

All of the books you list are worthwhile in my view.
The Aisne is poorly covered.The  Aisne 1914: The Dawn of Trench Warefare by Paul Kendal.Excellent and I am just about to write my view for Stand To!
On Ypres
The Old Contemptables Keith  Simpson (excellent phot coverage and sharp text).
Ypres 1914; The First Battle  Ian Becket
Both were contemporaries of Richard Holmes on the teaching staff at Sandhurst. Both "sound chaps".

Trial by Fire  Nikolas Gardner  Trial by Fire: Command and the British Expeditionary Force in 1914.  Little read in Britain (costly). A very challenging view of the competence of the BEF and its command by a Canadian acdemic. Very North American in its perception and its lack thereof - more Trial of the Brtitish army and its command.

I have just found out about (and have just ordered a copy - 2nd hand and for £18 incl postage a biblioography  Battles of the British Expeditionary Force: A Historiography and Annotated Bibliography although I have have not read it. You might find that helpful.
David

[PMHart]

I think most important of all - to understand the relatively small role played by the BEFin August 1914 in contrast to the legions of the French Army - then perhaps read Joffre's memoir, Terence Zuber (he shouts a lot!) and Jack Sheldon.... The BEF do get better though and we can be proud of their contribution - although still very small - in the Battle of the Aisne, Race to the Sea and of course First Ypres.

Pete

[PJA]

The British Campaign in France and Flanders 1914 by Arthur Conan Doyle.

When I bought this for a couple of quid in an obscure second hand bookshop in Arundel I expected it would be propaganda and unworthy of serious consideration.  I was wrong.  Give it a try if you get the chance.  It was written in 1916.

Phil (PJA)

[Jim Smithson]

The 2 Battleground Europe books you mention are both well worth the investment, especially if you are thinking of visiting some of the area at some time. B.E. books can be patchy in quality but these are both Nigel Cave books (with excellent co-authors) and are consequently excellent.

Jim

[Philip Wilson]

Jim Smithson, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

The 2 Battleground Europe books you mention are both well worth the investment, especially if you are thinking of visiting some of the area at some time. B.E. books can be patchy in quality but these are both Nigel Cave books (with excellent co-authors) and are consequently excellent.

Jim

Yes I would agree both books are excellent and provide much useful material.

Martin

I have located my copy of Dishonoured by Peter Scott which was published in September 1994  - again  a very well researched book drawing on both German and British sources. As Scott says in his introduction " This is not, therefore the history of the retreat from Mons, or of the Battle of Le Cateu, but is an account of a series of extraordinary  incidents common to  both and is offered as a contribution to the history of both."  If you are looking to understand the circumstances re the surrender of the two Colonels at St. Quentin then both 'Dishonoured' and 'Seek Glory, Now Keep Glory' should be on your list.

[Martin G]

Dear All - many thanks for your constructive comments. Clearly I have lots of reading to do...... Edmonds'  'Military Operations: France and Belgium 1914, has already arrived and I was interested to see that there is little mention of the attempt to surrender by the COs of the 1st Bn Royal Warwickshire Regt and the 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers.....so I am now wondering how much sensitive material has been left out.

My experience of the Official Histories to date is largely confined to the Gallipoli and Macedonia campaigns which both seem to attempt to record everything. Warts and all. I understand Edmonds tried and failed to censor Aspinall Oglander's accounts of Gallipoli (along with others)....given the France and Belgium 1914 was the first (?) in the OH series I wonder if Edmonds relaxed his self imposed censorship as he progressed through the various campaigns....if anyone is well read in the retreat from Mons I would be interested in your views on how accurate Edmonds' account is. I know we have the benefit of hindsight but the CO incident was I assume well known and understood at the time Edmonds was writing....

My copy is the 3rd Edition and I wonder how much it differed from the 1st Edidtion.....

Thanks again for all your informed comments. Much appreciated. MG

[David Filsell]

Love the comment that Zuber shouts a lot, I shall steal it if I ever review any more of his books. I have dound that his 'shoutyness' actually tends to deflect on from his observations.

[ianjonescl]

Currently reading The Old ContemptiblesThe British Expeditionary Force 1914 Robin Nellands which I am quite enjoying. Good at painting the wider picture rather than the exploits at Brigade / Battalion level.

Two good reviews on Amazon

This book is a must for anyone interested in studying the First World War. The introductory chapter outlining the developments leading up to the war amongst the main protagonists is one of the finest I have ever come across. Robin Neillands explains the events leading up to the conflict and the actions of nations and individuals concerned with a clarity that is both educating and easy to understand. He goes on to describe in great detail the magnificent contribution the Old Contemptibles made during the early days of the conflict, and how important this truly disciplined band of regular soldiers were.I would certainly recommend this book to anyone wanting a greater understanding of how the war to end all wars unfolded.

A very informative guide to the early days of the British Expeditionary Forces battles, a subject often glossed over in books on the Great War as they concentrate on later battles. At last, I have a picture of what life was like for my grandfather who was a regular soldier for ten years before WW1 was declared and became a member of the BEF.
Very well written and not at all stuffy! Highly recommended.

[seadog]

British Battles by Pan paperbacks, all secondhand and cheap. The 3rd row down Mons by Terraine and Ypres 1914 by Farrar-Hockley. If you get bored you can collect and read the rest!.

Norman

[Steven Broomfield]

seadog, on 02 August 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

British Battles by Pan paperbacks, all secondhand and cheap. The 3rd row down Mons by Terraine and Ypres 1914 by Farrar-Hockley. If you get bored you can collect and read the rest!.

Norman

I still have a few of those, Norman, and I'd say they're a pretty good series, all in all, by some good authors.

Regarding post 12, and this might be a bit off-topic, but I have tried several of Neillands' books and I can honestly say I've never managed to read more than about 50 pages. Not sure what it is, but I find his style remarklably -well - turgid, to be frank. I appreciate that might be speaking ill of someone who is no longer with us, but I'm afraid it's a fact as far as I'm concerned.

[David Filsell]

Nellands  book would not be on my list.

[Martin G]

I can report that the following books have already arrived and on first inspection look tantalisingly good...

The Mons Star
Farewell Leicester Square
The First Seven Divisions
Dishonoured.

Thanks again for the informed advice.

MG

[PJA]

Read  THE MONS STAR followed by Zuber's THE MONS MYTH.  A little bit of medicine to help the sugar go down.

Phil (PJA)

[Melvin Hurst]

Hi Martin,

These should be added to your list of recommended reading:

1. "Riding the Retreat" by the late Richard Holmes. It only goes up to 1st September but is excellent on that period.

2. "1914" by Lyn MacDonald. Coverage - until the end of the year. Copious first hand accounts.

3. "August 1914 Surrender At St. Quentin" by John Hutton, covering experiences of the two regiments involved in the infamous surrender attempt.

4. & 5. "Mons 1914" and "First Ypres" by David Lomas (thepen name of Deborah Lake). Excellent maps, illustraions and marvellous photograph collections.

6. 7. & * Three fits hand account form the Tommy's viewpoint, to counteract th officers' view in "Fifteen Rounds A Minute":

[Melvin Hurst]

Martin,

These should be added to your list of recommended reading:

1. "Riding the Retreat" by the late Richard Holmes. It only goes up to 1st September but is excellent on that period.

2. "1914" by Lyn MacDonald. Coverage is until the end of the year, with copious first hand accounts.

3. "August 1914 Surrender At St. Quentin" by John Hutton, covering the experiences of the two regiments involved in the infamous surrender attempt.

4. & 5. "Mons 1914" and "First Ypres" by David Lomas (the pen name of Deborah Lake). Excellent maps, illustrations and marvellous photograph collections.

6. 7. & 8 Three first hand accounts from the viewpoint of the ORs, to counteract the officers' view in "Fifteen Rounds A Minute":

     "There's A Devil In the Drum" by John Lucy
     "Old Soldiers never Die" by Frank Richards and
     "Coward's War" by George H. Coward

They are all very interesting, but the first is the best written.

[blackmaria]

There are some superb memoirs that cover that fascinating period of the war,unfortunately a lot of them are out of print.Apart from Old Soldiers and Devil in the Drum,mentioned above,some of my favourites are The Phantom Brigade(Vivian),Contemptible(Casualty),The First Three Months (Needham),From Mons to the First Battle of Ypres(Hyndson),The Land-Locked Lake(Hanbury-Sparrow),Unwilling Passenger(Osburn), With A Reservist in France(Bolwell)and The Breaking of the Storm (Brownlow).

[LiamS]

Tim Carew's book on first first Ypres is very good 'Wipers'

[Martin G]

Hello  -i thought that I would report back on the books read so far (just got back from a week in Majorca sitting by the pool with a pile of BEF books).....

1. "Dishonoured" by Peter Scott..... really disapponting. Rather a thin volume and he introduces most key players with a short chronological biography which is stylistically rather flat. The main problem is that the source material is very thin on the ground and while this episode is potentially very interesting for a number of reasons, I felt that 'Dishonoured' just didn't have enough original material to make a book.

2. "August 1914: Surrender at St Quentin" by John Hutton. Better that the above, and pulls in more detail, but still not enough material to provide a conclusive judgment. Will now have to order "Seek Glory Now Keep Glory". I suspect the lack of critical material will be a consistent thematic - and of course is not the fault of the authors.

3. "The Mons Star" by Ascoli. Very detailed. An excellent account. Clearly well researched. I understand the original was written at a time when some of the participants were still alive. Ascoli certainly has a (polemic?) view on all aspects of this episode (the Retreat), and is particularly complimentary (biased?) on the performance of the BEF and scathing about the German high command's inability to exploit gains against II Corps in the early days....and French's inability to get to grips with reality. All fascinating stuff. Someone should make the film (preferably without Spielberg's involvement). He also challenges some of the (then) entrenched and (now) outmoded views of the BEF and it was also interesting to read about the effectiveness of the (British) Cavalry during this open phase of warfare..... I enjoyed it so much I immediately read it again and it has spurred my interest to read the War Diaries....does anyone know if there is a detailed account of the destruction of the Cheshires?  The part I particularly enjoyed was a soldiers' (alleged) amazement they were off to fight the Germans rather than the French....not sure I quite believe it but amusing nonetheless...Top of my list so far.

4. "Mons: Retreat to Victory" has just arrived. Joy.

Thanks again for all your input. All the books have been ordered and most have arrived. MG

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Martin,

I am expecting "The Mons Star" any day now and your review is really encouraging.

Like you I have been looking for 1914 BEF books quite recently (your post and its replies have helped enormously) and so far I have opted for "Farewell Leicester Square", which came today and from a brisk delve-into looks very good - know it has been recommended to you above.

I see Jerry Murland also has a new book coming out about the Aisne 1914 (October I think).

Would like to hear your opinion on "Mons: Retreat to Victory" when you've read it

Thanks again

Jim

[Martin G]

PJA, on 09 August 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Read  THE MONS STAR followed by Zuber's THE MONS MYTH.  A little bit of medicine to help the sugar go down.

Phil (PJA)

Phil ( and PHart)...thanks for highlighting Terence Zuber's "The Mons Myth"...I generally try to avoid any books that include expressions such as "...the Real etc.......the Truth behind.....breaking the Myth..." etc as I think they tend to be written in a sensationalist way...I would not normally have picked this book up. It arrived yesterday and the introduction seems to be quite punchy, taking Edmonds, Ascoli, Terraine, Lomas Horsfall and Cave , and Cave and Sheldon head-on and refuting their repeated claims that the rapid-rifle fire was mistaken for MG fire, or the Germans advanced in dense massed ranks, or the German casualties were Greater than the British.....

I am still ploughing through Ascoli's The Mons Star and will get stuck into The Mons Myth immediately afterwards. ...I am already questioning how any the authors above (including Zuber) can make any claims over the German casualties (absolute numbers and relative numbers to the British) if the German archives in Potsdam were destroyed by the RAF in 1945 (bitterly mirroring the Arnside bombing). One assumes the number of dead are known (?) but the WIA or DOW not know for the German side......I note Zuber  goes as far as to claim that at Mons the Germans and the British were of equal strength and in some of the actions the British outnumbered the Germans....bottom line he claims:

1. Edmonds' Official History is pure patriotic Myth
2. The Lee Enfield was not the wonder weapon it has been made out to be
3. The Germans did not massively outnumber the British at either battle (Mons and Le Cateau)
4. At Le Cateau the British outnumbered the Germans
5. The Germans never equated rapid rifle fire with machine-guns
6. The British did not inflict disproportionate casualties on the Germans
7. The Germans did not attack in solid masses but by bounds in fire and movement

...and implies all of the above (except point 1) is at odds with most of the authors writing after Edmonds' Official History.....so I think it will be a fascinating read. I am particularly interested in Edmonds' version of events and how accurate it is, as I know he tried (unsuccessfully) to pressure Aspinall-Oglander to sanitise his Gallipoli volumes....which might suggest Edmonds sanitised his own volumes on 1914 as implied by Zuber....It seems one could write a book just on the historiography of the retreat from Mons....

Thanks again for the pointer towards Zuber.

MG

P.S. Zuber seems to rely heavily on the German regimental histories to make his arguments and does not appear to question their accuracy (as he does of some of the British accounts). His general point that German accounts are at odds with British accounts is interesting. Anyone who has bothered to read British regimental histories in parallel with their War Diaries will know of that the accuracy of the histories was sometimes subordinated to the preservation of individual reputations and battalion reputations. I suspect the German histories suffered the same, however given the destruction of the German War Diaries it would be difficult to prove.

[Martin G]

An open queston - I wonder to what extent Edmond's Official History of the War: France and Belgium 1914 had on subsequent British histories of Mons, and to what extent Terraine's book influenced subsequent authors. His book was written in 1960 a few years before public access to War Diaries but at a time when many veterans were still alive.  MG